News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by qppo on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:01PM (#23615723)
The largest H1-B visa sponsors are Cognizant, Tata, Wipro, Infosys, and Deloitte. None of those scream "innovation" to me. The system absolutely needs reform, and I think most people can agree with that.

But that said, blanket bans on immigration by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration are probably not designed to help America or innovation either.

The whole H1-B ban feels like something the admin could throw to their supporters without making too much noise in the press, because it affects very few voters and we have more pressing economic problems than the tech labor shortage.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by ideals on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:35PM (#23616328)
This CNBC article says Amazon was the largest sponsor of H1B in 2019

> Amazon, which received more H-1B visas than any other company in 2019, described the move as “short-sighted” in a statement.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/23/google-amazon-tesla-trump-im...

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by pentae on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:03PM (#23615742)
I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by akuchling on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:08PM (#23615827)
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/26/783047584/leaked-emails-fuel-...

"For almost three decades, Jared Taylor has been publishing his ideas about race at the American Renaissance magazine and now at a website called AmRen, which is considered a mouthpiece for white supremacist ideology. ... The website is not well-known outside white nationalist circles — but it found an audience in White House adviser Stephen Miller."

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by qazpot on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:28PM (#23616192)
To be fair the bar to be considered a white supermacist is very low in today's political correctness environment.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by prezjordan on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:47PM (#23616487)
And what is your evidence of that?
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by dx87 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:24PM (#23617147)
I've personally been accused of being a neo-nazi on reddit because my username includes the number 88, which is only there because my wife's birth year is 1988 and I'm not creative enough to think of a unique name. I've seen the same frivolous accusations thrown around here as well.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by leereeves on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:21PM (#23617092)
The bar is so low that Jewish (like Stephen Miller) and even black (e.g. Ben Carson, Candace Owens) people are frequently called white supremacists. So low that people saying "It's ok to be white" were called white supremacists.

Does the term have any meaning now, or has it become simply a slur for anyone whose political beliefs differ, like "communist" or "terrorist" before it?

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by joubert on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @08:00AM (#23626874)
Agreed that there's risk in overuse which can lead to numbness for the real thing.

In some ways, I'd argue we should then be even more vigilant because white supremacist rhetoric / apologist sentiment and actions are having an easier time to hide behind the veils of fuzziness.

One comment though: you do not have to be white to be a white supremacist. White supremacy is the belief that white people are superior to people of other races, and should thus dominate them.

We see this pattern in other arenas too, e.g. gays and homophobia or women and gender bias.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by andrewla on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:33PM (#23616285)
This has no sources other than the SPLC's analysis of some leaked emails and selective quotations from them [1]. The SPLC has further examinations as well [2].

Look at the out-of-context quotes given in the first link and decide for yourself whether this is enough to justify a charge of being a white supremecist, even given that the article is explicitly dedicated to working towards that conclusion. Don't just take their word for it. I'll gladly concede that Miller is anti-immigration to the point of being xenophobic, but white supremecist is a huge stretch.

[1] https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/11/12/stephen-mille...

[2] https://www.splcenter.org/stephen-miller-breitbart-emails

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by nbardy on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:48PM (#23616509)
The bar for proving that "America is run by white supremacists" needs to be a lot higher than, one guy in the white house reads a blog.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by slowmotiony on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:11PM (#23615865)
So Stephen Miller is a white supremacist now? He must be hiding it pretty well, since I've heard through hundreds of hours of his podcast with Raheem Kasam and he has never said anything remotely racist.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by tomjakubowski on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:15PM (#23615948)
Stephen Miller, the one working in the White House, doesn't host any podcast. You are thinking of Jason Miller.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by slowmotiony on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:20PM (#23616042)
You're right, sorry about that one.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by compuguy on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:22PM (#23616086)
Last time I checked there is quite a lot of evidence pointing to him being a white supremacist: https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/13/politics/katie-mchugh-stephen...
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by slowmotiony on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:33PM (#23616288)
Thanks for the link, I confused him with the chief strategist of trump campaign Jason Miller.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by joubert on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @07:55AM (#23626830)
We should remind ourselves that white supremacy is the belief that white people are superior to people of other races, and that white people should thus be dominant over them.

In academics, white supremacy is a term to denote a system of structural racism which privileges white people over others, whether or not there's racial hatred.

You do not have to be white to be a white supremacist.

We can then critically evaluate what the current presidency and their network of advisers and influencers say and do. Some of the rhetoric and actions fall along lines other than white supremacy (e.g. xenophobia, nationalism, etc.), while others are less veiled.

Let's open our eyes, turn a mirror, and ask ourselves some hard questions: do I believe white people are superior? Do I benefit from a system that does and do I think anything should be done about it?

[dead]
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by hogFeast on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:27PM (#23616165)
What is also funny is that settled immigrants often have more right-wing views about immigration than people born into that society.

This doesn't appear to happen in the US because of the history and the significant levels of illegal immigration today but, where I am, the group most in favour of controls on migration are settled immigrants.

It seems very odd to say limiting immigration is white supremacy. The US has a huge illegal immigration problem, being in favour of immigration is being in favour of controls. There is no realistic alternative (I get why Democracts want more voters...but speaking non-politically).

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:45PM (#23616459)
> What is also funny is that settled immigrants often have more right-wing views about immigration than people born into that society.

> This doesn't appear to happen in the US

Yes, it does. It may happen significantly less in communities where the immigrants, their descendants, and others of their ethnicity are targeted, without selectivity by immigration status, for bigotry, including the highly visible Latino/Latina community (though, even there it still is a recognized and not uncommon phenomenon.)

It definitely happens among White European immigrants.

> It seems very odd to say limiting immigration is white supremacy.

Limiting immigration isn't, inherently, white supremacy.

But the people pushing it hardest in the US are, quite overtly, also pushing White supremacy and courting and excusing White supremacists.

> The US has a huge illegal immigration problem

The United States has had net negative illegal immigration for over decade, and the gross level has been in decline, too. It does not have a “huge illegal immigration problem”. And the illegal immigration problem it does have is in significant part because of stupid features of it's immigration system, like per country caps on top of per category caps, which creates decades long backlogs for legal immigration from countries with large numbers of prospective immigrants meeting individual qualifications, and stupid features of it's domestic policy that intersect with immigration policy, like the war on drugs and the resultant exportation of hardened, long-term US resident gang members to Central America that have contributed to the violence and refugee crises there.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by hogFeast on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:26PM (#23619763)
So much of this makes no sense. Immigrants are subject to bigotry everywhere. You are hopefully aware that during the WW2 a rather large number of people died because of this...yes, bigotry still exists in Europe (the US is vastly vastly vastly more tolerant than almost everywhere in Europe, the US was founded by people in Europe escaping bigotry and pogroms...most European nations are hostile to immigrants because they are largely homogeneous societies).

Your last comment is worse. The US has a level of illegal immigration that is unlike anything that has occurred in modern societies (i.e. since nation states formed). That is why it is a problem.

That isn't the fault of the US. If people somewhere else choose to break the law, the solution to that is not to change the law. US Law is made by US citizens (again, the only place in the world where someone would have this debate is the US).

Likewise, the "war on drugs" is a function of domestic policy in other countries...how can you blame the US for not intervening in the domestic policy of Central American countries (given the history of this in the 1980s). Again, thankfully saner heads have prevailed recently and we don't have govts invading other countries on a whim.

Also, in Europe we have people escaping a real war. A govt that is armed with chemical weapons and airplanes bombing the shit out of civilians. There is a high bar for refugee status...there is a reason why. Some people actually need help. Being poor and your country being a bad place to live is true in many places. If more people stayed where they are, and tried to make their countries better...maybe that would help?

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by hedora on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:07PM (#23616861)
When Trump quoted “When the looting starts the shooting starts” he was encouraging lynchings. Look up the history.

Along with numerous, more damning allegations, John Bolton says Trump is encouraging the Chinese to build death camps to house their ethnic minorities.

Boltan is a senior republican. He served in every republican administration since Regan. In fact, he’s also a racist, so it’s pretty clear he’s not some closet lefty plant. According to Wikipedia:

> From 2013 until March 2018, Bolton was chairman of the far-right anti-Muslim Gatestone Institute, which is prominent for disseminating false anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim information.

It’s not like this is the only time a member of Trump’s inner circle has blown a whistle. His former Secretary of Defense compared Trump to the Nazis in writing two weeks ago.

How much evidence will it take for you to pay attention to what Trump has been doing? Every mainstream news outlet consistently (except Fox, they’re inconsistent) runs stories about Trump’s racism and ties to white supremacists.

He purged a large percentage of his administration and the republican house and senate for opposing him.

His political campaign and immediate family regularly use Nazi imagery to support his campaign.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by xienze on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:18PM (#23616005)
Funny though that you see a muuuch more receptive tone to H1B limits here on HN compared to say, a story about American manufacturing going overseas. Quite interesting how one’s perspective on outsourcing changes when it’s YOUR livelihood being threatened.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by etrabroline on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:29PM (#23616211)
If millions of Americans were moving to India and taking up huge numbers of the top university spots and jobs, Indians would call it white supremacy, and they'd be right.
Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by goatinaboat on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:50PM (#23617561)
Indians would call it white supremacy, and they'd be right.

What’s it called when the Indian government puts the needs of Indian people first? Very few countries, the US being one, even care very much about non-citizens to start with.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by qppo on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:29PM (#23616207)
I am not a foreigner seeking to immigrate. I'm an American, but only because we had open borders (for white people) when my ancestors immigrated. Developing "our" workforce is only possible through more immigration, not less, and that has always been the story of America.

Many Americans meanwhile are blind to the fact that our current administration's immigration policy is emblematic of the systemic oppression of non-whites in our society. It's not about "protecting" anything but the comfort of whites.

It's not that "anything short of total open borders" is white supremacy. It's that our current immigration policy is functioning as a tool of white supremacy, whose endgame is a white ethnostate. And a huge reason that literal Nazis and white nationalists vote Republican and celebrate the Presidency of Donald Trump is because their explicit goal is a white nation, which that party and that man are furthering through these immigration policies.

If you want to protect and develop our labor, you should be in favor of more immigration and not less.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by hedora on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:37PM (#23616342)
Here are 6 sources. Different incidents, different news organizations. There are hundreds more, but I got bored. Hell, his campaign was running an ad with the Nazi pink triangle (like the gold star, but for gays and liberals) last week. That didn’t even make my list.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/white-supremacists-c...

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/23/735191317/white-supremacy-and...

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/01/trump-e...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/18/opinion/trump-white-supre...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/11/el-paso-shoo...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/06/donald-trump-jr-rifle-magazi...

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by trhway on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:40PM (#23616386)
>The largest H1-B visa sponsors are Cognizant, Tata, Wipro, Infosys, and Deloitte. None of those scream "innovation" to me.

of course. Those are the B2B ugliest enterprise software jobs that not many people really want to do, yet those are necessary jobs. Bad as it is, when/if those jobs move overseas due to the factors like those visa restrictions, i don't think it would make that software and its support for US customers better as overseas situation adds additional complexity and cost, and that in turn may get reflected in the performance of those US customers.

Note: i did almost 8 years on H1B in the previous decade (and before that few years as a remote in 199x), and i think the greatest threat to our cushy jobs here isn't small (85K/year) inflow of immigrants, it is full fledged remote work to which the companies have been pushed by factors like covid and now the work visa restrictions which can as well result in tech jobs leaving the country like manufacturing jobs left it in the past. The work visa program is like a safety pressure valve - shutting it off brings the risk of the thing blowing out, ie. the jobs just going away.

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by throwmehaweh on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:16PM (#23615977)
> by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration

This type of baseless rhetoric is rooted in identity politics and underlies the current division in the US.

Directly from the Whitehouse Proclamation[0]:

"American workers compete against foreign nationals for jobs in every sector of our economy, including against millions of aliens who enter the United States to perform temporary work. Temporary workers are often accompanied by their spouses and children, many of whom also compete against American workers. Under ordinary circumstances, properly administered temporary worker programs can provide benefits to the economy. But under the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction resulting from the COVID-19 outbreak, certain nonimmigrant visa programs authorizing such employment pose an unusual threat to the employment of American workers."

[0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation...

Re:Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and ba... by akhilcacharya on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:42PM (#23617444)
As a person of color whose parents immigrated to America via H1B and saw the footage out of El Paso and Charlottesville and the murder of people that look like my uncles in Olathe Kansas the rhetoric has tangible effects and is anything but “baseless”.