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Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:34PM (#23586434)
It seems like a simple law could fix this:

Phone device makers that provide an application store must also allow the user to load non-approved applications with equivalent API access to approved applications, and must make it possible for the user to load a third-party application store with equivalent access to the first-party application store.

Re:My story with App Review by anchpop on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:36PM (#23586457)
I would like this to be extended to game consoles and any other kind of personal computing device, too! Although phones are clearly the most egregious example, game console manufacturers create a weird two-party market where they subsidize the purchase of the console so they can rent-seek off the larger playerbase by taking a cut of game sales.
Re:My story with App Review by threeseed on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:23PM (#23587425)
That would completely destroy the gaming console market.

Nintendo would largely be fine. Sony and Microsoft however would be forced into anti-consumer practices like putting advertising everywhere and selling your data. Not to mention a complete consolidation of the studios where most games would be made by Sony Studios and only sold on the Sony app store.

Re:My story with App Review by WrtCdEvrydy on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:35PM (#23587515)
> like putting advertising everywhere and selling your data

Ever used Xbox Live on the Xbox you paid for and seen ads? We're already there.

Re:My story with App Review by threeseed on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:40PM (#23587558)
Well it would go to a whole new level if you want to take away their only revenue source.

Microsoft may even just decide not to build consoles at all.

Re:My story with App Review by wayneftw on Sunday June 21, 2020 @09:21AM (#23591859)
Sounds good to me. Let somebody who wants to play ball fairly build the consoles.
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:42PM (#23586543)
Excellent point. It should probably apply to any hardware where you can load applications. There should always be a way for a user to load their own applications.
Re:My story with App Review by 013a on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:50PM (#23588093)
Game consoles don't have the kind of monopoly market that smartphone makers have. Firstly, because smartphones have evolved to become a generally indispensable item for most people, whereas game consoles don't have the same broad appeal and necessity. But also, secondly, game developers don't feel the same impetus to release on any individual platform, including the most popular closed-down platform, PS4. On the contrary, most games are released as exclusives, or otherwise intentionally limit their release platforms to ease engineering burden (example: Hollow Knight Silksong, an upcoming indie game from the very small Team Cherry (3 people last I checked), is intentionally only releasing on Steam and Switch at launch because supporting PS and Xbox is too difficult).

Valorant will do fine despite not being on PS4 or Xbox. Halo Infinite will do fine despite not being on PS4. The Last of Us II will do fine despite not being on Xbox or PC. This is the story for practically every game; net revenue from a specific title rarely increases enough to compensate for the additional effort of supporting a new platform, especially when platform exclusivity checks come in to play.

Speaking on platform exclusivity checks: They're an indispensable part of the industry and the production process for new games. Naughty Dog starts working on TLOU2 six years ago; they don't start seeing revenue from it until yesterday, after multiple delays and setbacks. Where does the money come from to pay developers until then? The publisher, which most commonly nowadays, is also a platform holder. Where does their money come from? The most sustainable, long-term revenue source is a storefront cut for already released games; Sony's 30% on every game funds Naughty Dog's development team.

What about the 70% from, say, the first Last of Us? Sure, that forms a critical component, but unless you're a studio that can consistently release mega-hit after mega-hit, that money will dry up. There are maybe 10 studios out there who can do this (Naughty Dog is one of them, so imagine we're instead talking about, lets say, Remedy with their recent game Control). In other words, this is investing in individual stocks versus market indices; the 30% cut from every game is more sustainable than the 70% cut from individual games, because not every game releases to massive success. Think Mass Effect Andromeda, No Mans Sky, Fallout 76, etc.

Take Fortnite; it funded Epic's ability to launch the Epic Games Store, and write exclusivity checks to companies like Remedy to secure Control. While I do believe Epic is being honest when they push their 12/88% revenue split and shit on Steam for their 30/70, lets be realistic: Fortnite enables them to do it, not morality. Epic paid $10M for Control [1]. Sony also paid some undisclosed amount for PS4-exclusive content, though the game also released on Xbox. Would Control exist, at least in its current awesome form, without those massive checks? Absolutely not. At best, development would have had to been rushed, or specific nice-to-haves would have been cut. At worst, who knows. But Remedy's previous release, Quantum Break (2016), was a keystone exclusive release for Xbox One, for which they likely also paid millions upfront, and it did not perform well.

Now, what you may be thinking is, what about companies like EA, Ubisoft, Rockstar, the "AAA third party studios". Yet, even these companies get huge checks from Sony and Microsoft. Sony paid Activision what was likely several million dollars for 1 year PS4 exclusivity on a multiplayer mode for Modern Warfare. Red Dead 2 had exclusive PS4 content at launch. When Destiny 2 releases a new map, it at least used to come to PS4 before anyone else. Xbox likely cut a special deal with EA for Access exclusivity on Xbox for years. Every company out there gets checks from these platforms at some point.

When Apple takes its 30%, app developers see none of it. But, with game consoles, to some significant degree that 30% is paying into a a bank account that you may, at some point in the future, be able to withdraw from if you promise a platform holder a bit (or a lot) of exclusive content. The hardware is a loss-leader. The subscription services (XBLG, PSN+, Game Pass) contribute some, but a lot of that money is already earmarked. That 30% cut is critical. The games industry is far more of a cycle than the App Store, and hurting the platform holders' ability to push this cycle along would have huge, unpredictable ramifications for the industry. Its not all good, but its far more necessary than Apple's 30% cut.

[1] https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-paid-dollar1045-million-for-con...

Re:My story with App Review by Sargos on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:36PM (#23586459)
It seems very common sense. I don't even know what the argument would be against this measure as it's completely optional for users and neutralizes censorship and anti-trust concerns. Seems like a win-win for both consumers and the platforms.
Re:My story with App Review by JoshTriplett on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:39PM (#23586496)
> I don't even know what the argument would be against this measure

While I do absolutely agree that sideloading should be possible, I do know that many phishing/security scams involve (or used to involve) installing a sideloaded application. It should be easy to install a sideloaded application if you understand the implications (and maintain the same protection that ensures you know what permissions you're granting the application), but it should not be easy to accidentally or unknowingly install a sideloaded application. Maintaining that distinction is a challenge; it's important enough to be worth doing, though.

Re:My story with App Review by grishka on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:06PM (#23587306)
Android shows some scary-ish warnings the first time you try to install an apk, and has you go into system settings and allow yourself sideloading apps from that particular source (browser, self-updating beta of something and so on). With this and all the permissions and sandboxing, it would take some serious dedication to scam yourself this way.
Re:My story with App Review by threeseed on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:36PM (#23587531)
> it would take some serious dedication to scam yourself this way

Consumers every day go to extreme lengths to satisfy the wishes of scammers. They will physically drive to the store, buy iTunes Gift Cards and hand over the codes to them. They will take photos of passports, credit cards etc for identify theft. They will install whatever software they are asked to.

The idea that they won't go into some setting and enable "Sideloading Apps" which sounds completely harmless is a bit ridiculous.

Re:My story with App Review by Nextgrid on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:06PM (#23587759)
In the real world, we're already allowing very dangerous goods to be sold, whether it's chemicals, power tools or kitchen appliances that can easily set fire to your house if misused. Yet the world hasn't ended and we've accepted that the convenience of having access to these goods is worth the risk of stupid people dying/hurting themselves.

Why should we be against doing the same online, and allowing greedy megacorps to profit and squash competition in the name of "security", especially since as you say stupid people will always find a way to get scammed regardless?

Furthermore I think that the reason people are being so careless online is because of the lack of consequences and thus no opportunity for learning. The various security safeguards already in place mean it's relatively hard to end up out of pocket even if let's say your machine has malware (which should be considered a "game over" scenario) and steals your credit card number (the bank will refund you for any fraudulent card-not-present transaction), thus there is no real worry around malware beyond a minor inconvenience.

Re:My story with App Review by nemothekid on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:22PM (#23587897)
>Furthermore I think that the reason people are being so careless online is because of the lack of consequences and thus no opportunity for learning.

If that were really true, then people would have "learned" in the Windows era. I don't think consumers actually directly suffer any consequences from having a hacked device, the problems are always third order. An open PC becomes a botnet to DDoS someone else. An unsuspecting employee uses a personal device to jump a corporate firewall. Credit Card fraud is routed through thousands of residential IPs.

>Yet the world hasn't ended and we've accepted that the convenience of having access to these goods is worth the risk of stupid people dying/hurting themselves.

The vast majority of us live in a country where toys inside chocolate is banned. I don't think you have a strong argument here.

Re:My story with App Review by threeseed on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:54PM (#23588462)
> I don't think consumers actually directly suffer any consequences from having a hacked device

You surely must be joking.

Why do you think there is such a large market for anti-virus and malware applications. Or why do you think Apple and Microsoft invest so much time and effort in security their platforms.

Because it directly impacts consumers. Scammers run apps on user's devices which mine Bitcoin. They steal data. They hold people to ransom. It just goes on and on.

Re:My story with App Review by Nextgrid on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:28PM (#23588639)
And yet the majority of these only result in a minor annoyance. Bitcoin mining doesn't impact the consumer from a financial point of view. DoS/proxy bots affects someone else but not the consumer. Stealing data is possible but most malware out there limits itself to either card numbers (for which the bank will compensate you) or social media accounts for spam purposes (which again don't impact you financially), there is rarely someone at the other end manually looking through your data to see how they can leverage it for more impact (because this requires manual work and doesn't scale). Ransomware could but with the prevalence of cloud storage today its impact is heavily mitigated.

While there are odd cases where a targeted attack results in devastating outcomes, in the majority of cases malware just sticks to simple, automated (and thus easy to scale) attacks like harvesting card numbers or accounts, for which the bank will compensate you. In most cases getting malware (aka a burglar in your PC) doesn't have the same financial impact as a burglar in your house (when you typically get thousands worth of goods stolen that aren't likely to get replaced) so there is no opportunity for learning or being worried.

Re:My story with App Review by Nextgrid on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:29PM (#23587949)
> An open PC becomes a botnet to DDoS someone else

Make the originator of the traffic liable for any damages, all the way up to the ISP? There would be a lot more worry about malware if it could cause a lawsuit/police investigation that lasts for months, even if you eventually end up off the hook, and ISPs would be incentivized to kick off customers that can't be bothered to secure their devices.

> Credit Card fraud is routed through thousands of residential IPs.

If the original credit card owner was liable for the stolen money this would incentivize them to better protect it and prevent it from being compromised in the first place. Plus with the liability for malicious traffic there wouldn't be as many residential IPs to proxy it through.

> where toys inside chocolate is banned

Well the is true but how about chemicals, power tools, flammable gas canisters, etc? I agree that the ban on toys inside chocolate eggs is stupid but we're allowing much more dangerous things to be around and the world hasn't ended.

Re:My story with App Review by grishka on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:21PM (#23588609)
Well, then they actually deserve the consequences of their ignorance. And, by the way, scams don't necessarily involve apps, they come in all shapes and sizes. Phone calls, websites, you name it.

It isn't realistically possible to safeguard everyone from everything bad while at the same time preserving their freedom.

Re:My story with App Review by alexashka on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:08PM (#23586819)
Apple and Google accountants would like to have a word with you in regards to this win-win you're imagining.

If you think these mega-corps haven't done the math and decided it's more profitable to lobby and skim 30% off everyone vs not skim and avoid having to pay lobbyists and lawyers, you are being naive.

Re:My story with App Review by grishka on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:08PM (#23587315)
Google is okay with apps having their own payment processing, regardless of whether it's for physical or digital goods.
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:41PM (#23586528)
> I don't even know what the argument would be against this measure

The standard argument is that non-approved applications could damage the device, which the device maker would then be on the hook for fixing. This feels like a weak argument to me, given that PC makers have been dealing with this for 30+ years.

Re:My story with App Review by scarface74 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:25PM (#23588324)
And very badly....
Re:My story with App Review by graeme on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:42PM (#23586544)
Wouldn’t this lead to intense efforts to install malware and scams?
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:45PM (#23586574)
Probably. Just like on your PC. But I'm not sure that is a good reason not to have it. We've put mitigations in place on the PC.
Re:My story with App Review by threeseed on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:16PM (#23587372)
This reality you want to impose on the world is hilarious.

Just picturing wanting to sit down and play on my PS4 and having to first run virus and malware checkers.

Re:My story with App Review by Nextgrid on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:14PM (#23587833)
> Just picturing wanting to sit down and play on my PS4 and having to first run virus and malware checkers.

Why would a reputable game developer ever release malware? You can still go to a reputable developer's website or even Sony's website and obtain the game from their store and be guaranteed that it's free from malware.

Of course, if you're obtaining your games from Torrent-Warez-1337.net then you need to be more careful but then it's your fault, it's not like you didn't know what you were in for when you went to a shady website.

Re:My story with App Review by scarface74 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:27PM (#23588329)
Re:My story with App Review by oauea on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:53PM (#23587664)
This reality you want to impose on the world is hilarious.

Just picturing buying a computing device, then not being able to install the software I want on it.

Re:My story with App Review by threeseed on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:51PM (#23588440)
I am not imposing any reality.

The status quo is then when you buy console devices e.g. gaming, cars, TVs etc you can only install apps that are approved by the manufacturer.

People think of phones as console devices not computers.

Re:My story with App Review by 43920 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:52PM (#23587654)
The fact that most mobile platforms are sandboxed would help a lot to mitigate this - even if you do install a malicious app, the damage it can do is going to be fairly limited in most cases.

(And the platforms that don't have effective sandboxing need to implement it, regardless of whether they allow outside apps or not).

Re:My story with App Review by greedo on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:04PM (#23588183)
Sandboxing doesn't really mitigate much of the issue. Apps often need access to shared storage as well as contacts etc. Even if they don't need access to what really should be private, they'll ask for it. And as we've trained a generation of Windows users to do, they'll grant access. Then we have privacy breaches, or tracking issues etc etc. The OS on the mobile device may be fine, but your data won't be.
Re:My story with App Review by michaelt on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:46PM (#23586588)
That would be better than nothing, but wouldn't the alternative app stores end up being vimeo to Apple's youtube? With every developer needing to obey Apple's policies and get into their store if they want to make a living from their work?
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:51PM (#23586639)
My assumption is that it would force apple to have better and more transparent policies.

For example, if every app that didn't like the 30% cut rule went to another app store that didn't have that rule, that other app store would either get really popular or Apple would be forced to change their fee structure.

Re:My story with App Review by michaelt on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:10PM (#23586833)
So long as keeping 70% of 100 sales is better than keeping 100% of 50 sales, I just can't see competing app stores getting big.
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:27PM (#23586990)
I don't assume it would fix all problems. I just assume it would force Apple to move to a slightly more developer/consumer friendly model.

Also, in a lot of cases, the choice is 100% of 0 sales because Apple just won't let you in their store.

For an example of what a third party app store would look like, check out Cydia app store (the main way to get apps on your jailbroken phone). There are a ton of useful apps in there.

Re:My story with App Review by glogla on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:35PM (#23587516)
Might be, but it might be Epic and Humble Stores to Apple's Steam.
Re:My story with App Review by scarface74 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:24PM (#23588314)
Apple ‘s APIs also require access to Apple’s infrastructure - like CloudKit and notifications that go through their infrastructure.
Re:My story with App Review by ntsplnkv2 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:59PM (#23586739)
In general I am against legislation like this. There are plenty of areas for remediation for a rejected app. You can offer on competing platforms (Android), or offer a web-app which is usable on an iPhone. Or you can follow the rules of the app store. Those are 3 perfectly viable options.

We have a tendency to view anything that goes against "us" as unfair. I don't see anything that Apple is doing that is anti-competitive, and don't see why legislation is necessary.

Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:02PM (#23586764)
A standard legal test is: "are the alternatives equivalent". The three options you provide are not at all equivalent. That makes it anti-competitive.

Android isn't the same as Apple. They also have their own rules.

A web app doesn't have the same level of access as a native app.

The rules of the app store are unfair and aren't applied equally to everyone.

Re:My story with App Review by ntsplnkv2 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:23PM (#23587427)
> A standard legal test is: "are the alternatives equivalent". The three options you provide are not at all equivalent. That makes it anti-competitive.

The test is rather, are the alternatives viable. And that they are.

You also have to prove that Apple is being anti-competitive - which is not true. Apple is applying their rules as equally as possible - just because it's imperfect enforcement, doesn't make it anti-competitive - it's unfair to punish when the scope of the problem means there will be apps that slip through wrongly.

Example: There are multiple email apps on the app store, and Apple isn't removing Hey because they also have a $99 email app. That would be anti-competitive. That's not what's happening here.

> Android isn't the same as Apple. They also have their own rules.

Android you can use third party app stores and sideload without any rules at all, and it's a bigger market. Sounds like a viable alternative.

> A web app doesn't have the same level of access as a native app.

Gmail has a website and an app. Both do the same thing - email. It's a viable alternative.

> The rules of the app store are unfair and aren't applied equally to everyone.

Imperfect enforcement is not the same as they aren't applied equally. It seems to me that they are - Apple is looking for offenders, finding them, and removing them. Seems pretty equal to me.

Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:35PM (#23587523)
> Android you can use third party app stores and sideload without any rules at all, and it's a bigger market. Sounds like a viable alternative.

Telling someone that Android is a viable alternative to iPhone is the same as saying Marvel and DC comics are equivalent. They offer similar services, but do it in very different ways, and people have strong preferences one way or another.

> Gmail has a website and an app. Both do the same thing - email. It's a viable alternative.

This is actually a perfect example to prove my case. Things the gmail web app can't do on iPhone: Use your phone's contacts, notifications, photo previews on send, use native gestures, and lastly, the native app is significantly faster and more responsive.

Re:My story with App Review by ntsplnkv2 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @12:25AM (#23589747)
I see you've conveniently left out the other arguments, probably because you know that what Apple is doing is NOT anti-competitive, and it's not a monopoly.

> They offer similar services, but do it in very different ways, and people have strong preferences one way or another.

Of course, it's a different product. People have strong preferences for the iPhone because of the curated experience, including the App Store. Remove that, and the phone becomes just another android. This destroys the product.

> Things the gmail web app can't do on iPhone: Use your phone's contacts, notifications, photo previews on send, use native gestures, and lastly, the native app is significantly faster and more responsive.

https://iphonebyte.com/sync-iphone-contacts-to-gmail/

There are multiple ways to sync contacts. You really just have no leg to stand on here.

I think what you're really saying, is you want an authoritarian utopia. We demand that all product is made how we all like it. Everything is the same, because if it isn't, it's "unfair."

No thanks. We have enough legislation. Going after one of America's premier tech companies because rich SV devs are mad their 99$ email app is failing is not something we should do.

Re:My story with App Review by scarface74 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:29PM (#23588341)
Yes they do it in different ways and users have a choice.
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:34PM (#23588362)
Users have a platform choice but they have no choice in where to get software for their hardware.
Re:My story with App Review by scarface74 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:36PM (#23588370)
Then they make a choice to buy the more open platform if that’s more important to them. I can’t whine because I can’t get software from XBox Live for my PS4
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:43PM (#23588399)
You should whine because you can't get my PS4 software on your PS4. Even if you wanted to get my software, there is no way for you to do that without Sony's approval.

So if Xbox suddenly became an open platform, you'd be ok with me telling you "well if you want my software you just have to buy an Xbox and get all new software for it and learn an all new system, but they're totally the same thing so it's fine".

Re:My story with App Review by scarface74 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:57PM (#23588774)
Yes. Just like I chose to buy a Mac knowing I couldn’t run Windows software.
Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:07PM (#23588824)
You're confusing platform availably with control.

On both the Mac and PC, you can install any software available for those platforms.

Re:My story with App Review by rajlego on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:44PM (#23586568)
I thought you could already do this on iOS? I can’t remember where I saw it but I could’ve sworn you can without jailbreak
Re:My story with App Review by jsjohnst on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:34PM (#23587508)
Despite sibling comment implying otherwise incorrectly, there are multiple ways to install non-app store approved apps.

1) you can sign an app for your device and run it without paying Apple anything for 7 days. After 7 days you have to do it again. Not convenient in the slightest, but still possible for free.

2) you can pay Apple $99/year for a paid dev account and the 7 day window extends to 365 days.

Neither of those above options require source code, somebody else could’ve compiled the app, you just need to sign it.

3) TestFlight allows installation without full App Store review and builds expire after 60 days (or is it 90, I forget?). I believe the cap of “limited people” sibling referred to is 10,000 these days, but I could be wrong. iSH is an example of a popular app using this route.

4) Corporations can sign up for an enterprise account for $299/year. This allows signing apps similarish to option 2 above, but for a virtually unlimited number of devices. The apps are required by policy to not be distributed to the general public though.

Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:37PM (#23587539)
I'm not exactly sure how I was incorrect. I said exactly the same thing you did, just with fewer numbers.

At the end of the day, you can't just download an app and install it. You have to go through hoops, all of which involve money, expirations, or limits.

Re:My story with App Review by jsjohnst on Saturday June 20, 2020 @05:55PM (#23587679)
1) you said you had to pay, that’s not true.

2) you said you needed source code and to compile, that’s not true.

3) you said you “can’t just go online and download an app”, which unless you’re being very pedantic, isn’t true. I even gave a popular example, iSH.

OP didn’t ask if alternative app stores existed with one click installers, they said you should be able to side load apps on iOS, which I’ve shown true via multiple methods. If you had “said exactly the same thing” I did, then you must have a different definition of the phrase “you cannot” which is the lead of your comment which I’ve shown to be factually incorrect.

Re:My story with App Review by jedberg on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:46PM (#23586586)
You cannot. You can kind of do it if you pay for a developer account and can get the source code and compile it yourself and sign it yourself. You can also install Testflight which allows someone (with a developer account) to distribute a limited number of copies.

But you can't just go online and download an app.

Re:My story with App Review by eqtn on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:18PM (#23586908)
You can kinda do it using altstore.