News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by latexr on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:32PM (#23580735)
> Today, a free app brings Apple zero revenue

Today and always, a free app brings Apple $99/year for a developer account, which is mandatory to publish on the App Store.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by gregmac on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:54PM (#23580857)
This is actually fairly significant.

As a point of comparison, in 2019, Apple did about 50 billion in sales [1], which means they made about $15 billion

In 2018 (latest I could find numbers for) they reportedly had 20 million registered developers [2] so that's another $2 billion. That's 3.5% of their 2019 net income of $55 billion [3] (of course there are costs to running the app store, distribution, etc that aren't accounted for in here).

It makes me think of Costco -- whose membership fees make up nearly all their net income [4]. Don't make money from the thing, make money from enabling access to the thing -- well or I guess in Apple's case, make money from both.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/07/apple-app-store-had-estimate...

[2] https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/04/app-store-hits-20m-registe...

[3] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/net-inc...

[4] https://money.com/costco-doesnt-make-much-money-selling-you-...

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by ksec on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:01PM (#23581186)
Yes that is the figure I point out whenever I look at Mac business. Which has 100M Active user [1]. i.e at least 20% of Mac users are Apple registered developers. They will all need to buy a Mac it also contribute to their Mac bottomline. And since there are also tons of Web Developers and Developers form other domain on the Mac, it would not be far fetch to say Developers is one of the largest user group on the platform.

This is also the reason why I dont buy the argument about App Store 30% cut bringing you the development tools. Those are well covered by the $99 and more. Now thinking about it, I would be surprised if the reviewing of Apps were not covered by the $2B annual developer fees alone.

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/30/there-are-now-100-million-...

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by kevindong on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:11PM (#23580937)
> In 2018 (latest I could find numbers for) they reportedly had 20 million registered developers

Keep in mind that the term "registered developer" is fairly ambiguous. Does it include non-paying developers? Does it include all developers under a single business account (e.g. at one of my jobs, I was a registered developer under a broader organizational account)?

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by maguay on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:24PM (#23580980)
I would presume that includes paid and free developers; you have to have an Apple Developer account to sign Safari extensions, for instance, or to sign non-App Store Mac apps, neither of which require a paid Apple Developer account.

The point would still stand though that the total revenue from Apple Developer subscriptions would not be insignificant (perhaps insignificant to Apple’s overall revenue, but still enough to be a sizable startup’s budget on its own), which I should have noted in the original article.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by latexr on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:18PM (#23581279)
> you have to have an Apple Developer account to sign Safari extensions, for instance, or to sign non-App Store Mac apps, neither of which require a paid Apple Developer account.

Their documentation suggests otherwise[1] (scroll down to “Benefits and Resources”). “Safari Extensions distribution” and “Software distribution outside the Mac App Store” are listed on the column of the 99 USD fee.

[1]: https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by maguay on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:51PM (#23581478)
Interesting, this may have changed.

Just remembered that Safari now only lets you install extensions from the App Store, so that would actually make sense if a paid developer account is now required.

There’s yet another reason why Safari has so few extensions.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by forgotmypw17 on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:40PM (#23581061)
Also, to download Xcode, iirc
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by kohtatsu on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:48PM (#23581093)
No. Xcode is needed for a lot of things like CLI tools, it's free.
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by Sephr on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:53AM (#23583193)
Not only do developers pay $99/year. Apple actually claims that they don't:

https://twitter.com/sephr/status/1133804665961734144

https://www.apple.com/ios/app-store/principles-practices/

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by maguay on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:22PM (#23580974)
Author here: Great point, I should have noted that. Developers also have to use Apple devices, and the free apps increase the appeal of Apple devices, both of which drive additional revenue.

From an App Store revenue perspective, the $99/year seems incredibly insignificant compared to what any tiny percentage of sales from SaaS subscriptions would look like otherwise. That would have been a better way to frame it.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by zuppy on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:49PM (#23580817)
Don’t forget about the ~1000$ per device customers pay, which should cover whatever they do with the appstore.
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by mysterydip on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:54PM (#23580855)
Don't forget the forced upgrades every handful of years for developers as the latest xcode is required for the latest ios, the latest osx required for the latest xcode, and your device you bought doesn't support the new osx.

Granted I've only had to do that twice in a decade, but I can still develop android apps on any old equipment I want.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by kevindong on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:19PM (#23580959)
The latest version of macOS (Catalina) supports all hardware manufactured since 2013 (and 2012 if you exclude the last tower-style Mac Pro and the white unibody MacBook). I kinda doubt there's a technical reason why Apple doesn't support hardware older than that, but a ~6 year support period (2013 til 2019 when Catalina was originally released) isn't entirely unreasonable.

Per Apple's specs page [0], these devices are supported.

> MacBook (Early 2015 or newer)

> MacBook Air (Mid 2012 or newer)

> MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 or newer)

> Mac mini (Late 2012 or newer)

> iMac (Late 2012 or newer)

> iMac Pro (2017)

> Mac Pro (Late 2013 or newer)

There weren't any "MacBook"s manufactured between 2013 and 2014 (inclusive). The only model year of the iMac Pro ever manufactured is 2017. All trash can Mac Pros and forward are supported, but not any of the tower style models.

[0]: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP803?locale=en_US

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by xenonite on Saturday June 20, 2020 @03:15AM (#23582365)
Nevertheless, running a current Windows 10 ist possible on much older devices (including Macs, even).
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by SyneRyder on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:02AM (#23583468)
Indeed, I have a MacBook 2006 that runs Windows 10 in a BootCamp installation. That's a 14 year old machine that Microsoft has been continuing to provide updates for. It's a bit embarrassing when Microsoft provides 8 years more support for an Apple device than Apple does itself.
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by FirefoxIsSlow on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:55PM (#23581139)
My computer was built in March 2012, if it was an Apple product I couldn't code on it.

As a side note, I'm quite impressed that my 2012 doesn't feel like it aged at all. I'm still doing Max quality, non vr gaming on it.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by coffeefirst on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:34PM (#23581026)
True, and that still undersells what the app ecosystem does.

Even if Apple made $0 off of all apps, apps are a complementary product to their devices. Apple knows this, it's part of why they always tout all the apps they didn't make. Every app you find useful on your iphone makes it more valuable to you, and keeps you in their ecosystem.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by user_50123890 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:16PM (#23584727)
I doubt there are really too many of those. At the most, I'd say under 50k.

The real reason for the fee is just to stop spammers on the App store. It probably blocks around 99% of them, without the fee I'd wager the appstore would be unusable.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by godzillabrennus on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:52PM (#23580839)
If I recall correctly they had different tiers back when this was a MAC only developer requirement (before iPhone).

I was a student and signed up to tinker for about $99/year under that tier for access to xCode (and they sent me a free t-shirt for every new version of OSX.

I think you could spend a lot more money for a full enterprise dev account.

Not that I fault Apple for trying to profit from this creation of theirs but the ambiguity and lack of standardized enforcement is problematic.

I don’t even like Hey. I’ve posted about why.

However, I can’t differentiate between the Hey app and Fastmail. Allowing one without the other seems crazy to me.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by cageface on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:03PM (#23580895)
A lot of people buy iPhones because of the superior app ecosystem and that's all thanks to developers, including those making free apps. So it's false to say Apple makes no money off free apps.
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by maguay on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:56PM (#23581145)
Author here, that’s an excellent point, one I overlooked with that statement and that Apple seems to be overlooking in their letter to the Hey team as well, where they said

> “We understand that Basecamp has developed a number of apps and many subsequent versions for the App Store for many years, and that the App Store has distributed millions of these apps to iOS users. These apps do not offer in-app purchase — and, consequently, have not contributed any revenue to the App Store over the last eight years.”

Which shows how unlikely Apple is to back down here, unfortunately.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by aabbcc1241 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @04:44AM (#23590741)
Also you need apple device to compile
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by epx on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:54PM (#23580852)
They sell a lot of phones thanks to a healthy ecosystem.
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by artsyca on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:47PM (#23580807)
Bro. While technically true, $99/year is actually less than nothing if you really think about it.

Edit: do the math -- $99/year x 1 developer account versus even $1 for the app for a modest number of users. you're dealing with a fixed price versus a scaling factor.

Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by logical_proof on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:49PM (#23580822)
It also includes the purchase of a computer
Re:Today’s developers don’t need what the App Store offers by artsyca on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:52PM (#23580840)
I rather get a high number of downvotes than upvotes quite honestly.