News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by mullingitover on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:23AM (#23571581)
Armstrong's exact argument about the vast numbers conspirators that would be required to keep perfect secrecy is exactly what I use when people try to claim that the coronavirus is some kind of hoax or that there's some kind of conspiracy about vaccines.

Have you ever tried to get thousands of people to cooperate on anything, let alone perpetuate a massive lie, when they have nothing to gain personally from doing so?

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by mihaifm on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:53AM (#23571775)
They don't have to lie. You can have 90% of those 400k people do legit work, but still fake the landing. Maybe they built the rocket but encountered some technical bottleneck and had to fake the landing. Not a skeptic myself, but the argument that 400k people needed to keep a secret is pretty weak.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by publicrootkey on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:02AM (#23571827)
If the moon landing was indeed infeasible from a technical perspective at that time, those people would know, that their designs were inadequate or flawed. The "some people might think they do legit work" argument doesn't really hold, because they would either know it was an impossible feat, or it would possible and no need to fake the landing.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by jv22222 on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:58AM (#23571803)
The movie The Cube springs to mind. No one knows what anyone else is building other than a very few who put the whole dastardly thing together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube_(film)

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by mullingitover on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:13AM (#23571889)
Even faking the landing would require cooperation from parties with nothing to gain, since independent parties were able to bounce a laser off the mirror that they placed when they landed.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by avmich on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:59AM (#23571806)
> Not a skeptic myself, but the argument that 400k people needed to keep a secret is pretty weak.

That's unless you start looking closer. Those people, they aren't universally fools, they think by themselves. Maybe not all 400k, but a sizeable non-reducible chunk of them do.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by nojvek on Friday June 19, 2020 @10:30PM (#23581002)
It could be a half lie too. 400k people built rocket, they saw the launch but the rocket didn’t actually make it to moon. The actual moon shots were in a studio.

Half lies are the best lies because you can argue half a truth is good enough for the whole truth.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by koheripbal on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:14AM (#23574170)
The argument still holds because you'd need to keep 40K people silent - which is impossible.

There are single individuals that even the President of the US cannot keep silent.

A democratic country has no ability to keep monumental secrets like this.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by jussij on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:07AM (#23571856)
That still leaves 40,000 people who are in on that lie.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by solarkraft on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:48AM (#23571735)
The great trick about this is that you don't have to believe in a perfect conspiracy, because you can just make up anonymous sources.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by desikoder on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:31AM (#23571624)
Yeah, people have been selling an invisible product since thousands of years (religion), so it is quite possible to get billions of people to lie to themselves and to others.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by mjburgess on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:44AM (#23571708)
The "product" being sold is a doctrinal basis for group cohesion, the same basic constitutive role that the following ideas play: "property is theft", "LOTR is the best book ever written", "transwomen are women", etc. (<- this is not a comment on the truth of these, only their social function).

These ideas constitute groups around them, forming a bedrock of a social belief system.

Ironically, this is exactly how conspiracies function: "we never landed on the moon".

This does not apply to people with material goals, rather than social(/epistemic) ones. The goal, "let's poison everyone with 5G" isn't an essentially meaningless doctrine ie., whose only impact is on belief, not on the world.

Goals to change the world, rather than to regulate belief, require actual self-awareness, coordination and a desire to realise that end-goal. In this case, i'd require >1mil+ people absurdly committed to poisoning everyone around them (and not least, to have some magical ability to induce a virus with a wifi signal).

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by avmich on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:41AM (#23571684)
I take issue with your "quite". Did you try to establish a new religion? Star Wars had some success on that, but even them - with all modern might of persuasion - didn't get billions - or tens of millions - of followers, and those who they did are arguably at least partially follow in jest.

You can't apply "religion" argument that easily.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by Supermancho on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:52AM (#23571768)
> Did you try to establish a new religion?

L. Ron Hubbard. Church of Latter Day Saints. There have been major religions established in the last 2 centuries in the USA alone.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by avmich on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:55AM (#23571793)
Those are not major enough, not billions. 2 centuries are longer than Moon controversy, though not by much.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by Supermancho on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:03AM (#23575194)
Adding a new qualification of "not major enough" is a no true scotsman argument, which is not compelling. They are religions by any measure but your arbitrary goalposting.

>> people have been selling an invisible product since thousands of years (religion), so it is quite possible to get billions of people to lie to themselves and to others.

The "billions" qualification comes from your specific interpretation of this statement to mean a single religion. This is not the assertion. Nor is the specific count relevant to the point, as billions can be read to mean all relgions combined. Large groups of people can deceive each other and themselves. Full stop.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by avmich on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:57PM (#23577088)
> They are religions by any measure but your arbitrary goalposting.

The argument was "people are believing in imaginary things, in billions and for centuries". For billions - or so - and for centuries - or so - arguments to apply, the religion ought to be major.

> The "billions" qualification comes from your specific interpretation of this statement to mean a single religion.

Oh, so now goalposting mean not a single example, but a combined group :) in comparison to one specific - and rather located in time and geography - government program.

Frankly, at this point I don't see much sense in more hairsplitting. Points were made, anyone can think for oneself from these.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by bawolff on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:55AM (#23571792)
I think OP is being reductive, but at the same time, people do make new religions. We usually call them cults. Christianity didn't get a billion followers overnight, it took literally 2000 years of proselytizing. Who knows, the scientologists of today might be the mainstream religion of tomorrow
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by avmich on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:57AM (#23571797)
Cults are cheap, they come and go. Religion - a true one, that's what counts. Cults we've had in the high school, nobody remembers them after a while.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by bawolff on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:05AM (#23571842)
Survivorship bias? Or am i just missing the joke here?
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by avmich on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:00AM (#23572161)
The point was that there are illusions which hold lots of people for long time. Religions are a good example. However to keep really lots of people for a really long time, religion should survive itself - and outcompete others, and that's not easy. So the argument "religion" shouldn't be brought every time a government is suspected in doing something... conspirological.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by mullingitover on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:08AM (#23571860)
How do you define 'a true one' when it comes to religion? For most people the true religion is just whatever religion you grew up on.

And cults turn into religions all the time. There's a fine line between a cult and a religion, and that line is ownership of real estate.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by mhh__ on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:39AM (#23571668)
Parent comment said nothing to gain from.

Pascal's wager (at least) would suggest some kind of logic to it

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by fauigerzigerk on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:13AM (#23571897)
Pascal's wager never made sense to me. There are infinitely many possible belief systems. The odds of picking the right one are infinitely small.

Picking the wrong one may even come with greater loss than picking none of them, because praying to false gods may bring upon me the wrath of the true gods more so than simply keeping an open mind.

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by moksly on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:54AM (#23571780)
I read about homeopaths on arstechnica the other day and I have to say that it shock me. How did we ever get to a society where people are injecting mercury to fight diseases? The worst part about it is that some of these people are the same who fear vaccines. It just doesn’t make any sense.

How do you even reason with those people?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/homeopaths-sell-inje...

Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by ghthor on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:13AM (#23571894)
The evidence about vaccines causing harm is piling up. The question of whether there is a conspiracy at least motivated by greed is also piling up. I personally think there is a even higher conspiracy, one on a spiritual level that is also involved in orchestrating the overall deception and harm caused by vaccines but I have no solid evidence for that.
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by wilt on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:25AM (#23571968)
Yeah that was me. If I can get enough people to use them I will get enough spirit energy to be able to buy a magic sword off a ghost. Then with the sword I can fight the magic photocopier to get the pendant to open the door....
Re:Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic by tim333 on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:29AM (#23572346)
The thing with vaccines is not that they never cause harm but that you can quantify how much harm vs how much good and usually good is a clear win bar the odd screw up eg https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/05/01/vaccine-sw...