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Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Despegar on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:19PM (#23565283)
>That's correct. But the law does require them to run the stores in a way that does not violate antitrust laws. Apple is violating antitrust laws by forcing companies to use Apple Pay as a condition of using the App Store (i.e., leveraging dominant/monopolistic market position in one market in a non-competitive manner over another market).

The reason why everyone has to narrowly define the market to "Apple has monopoly power in the iOS market" is because they don't actually have monopoly power in smartphones and are mad about that fact. Defining markets are a major part of antitrust cases and just because a prosecutor or regulator is willing to do it doesn't mean it will actually work in court.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by iav on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:44PM (#23565577)
Defining Apple as a monopolist on iOS is like calling Ford a monopolist in selling radios in Ford vehicles. No one thinks it’s a violation for Ford to include their own radio (built by a 3rd party like Bose - same as an app) in a Ford truck, and offer you an expensive upgrade to that radio (say also by Olufsen - also like a better App) if you want it. No one demands that Ford allow a different vendor to sell you a compatible radio through a Ford dealer and for Ford to not take a cut of the purchase price. And if Ford says that installing a third party radio without their authorization voids your warranty or otherwise makes it impossible to do so, it’s generally accepted to be OK. This analogy is at the core of Apple’s defense and it was brought up in previous anti trust cases like AA v. Sabre.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by vonmoltke on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:01PM (#23565765)
> if Ford says that installing a third party radio without their authorization voids your warranty or otherwise makes it impossible to do so, it’s generally accepted to be OK

This has been generally illegal in the US since 1975: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2302 (section c)

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by iav on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:15PM (#23566606)
Interesting and I was wrong. While that might make for a good case why Apple should be compelled to allow the side loading of apps (especially since an App can be sandboxed and couldn’t possibly damage the device, a key criteria in the link). It still makes it hard to win an antitrust case against Apple. If you defined the market for Ford radios as to only include Ford-manufactured vehicles, then every single car company is a monopolist. Defense would push back that Ford competes against GM and Tesla, not against Bose and Sonos (in my prior analogy), so as long as consumers have choice of cars, then Ford shouldn’t be subject to antitrust actions and remedies in regards to radios.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by dwaite on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:21AM (#23572301)
There is nothing that would indicate side loading alone would be sufficient for applications wishing to forgo the App Store. Fortnite on Android is an example of an application which started out being side loaded but eventually conceded that there were too many platform restrictions for that to be viable.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by dwaite on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:23AM (#23572311)
Apple does allow side-loading apps today, but with restrictions that make it unsuitable for consumer applications - requirement for an enterprise provisioning profile, applications expire after a set period of time, applications are expected to be deployed via Xcode, etc.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Denvercoder9 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:55PM (#23565700)
> And if Ford says that installing a third party radio without their authorization voids your warranty or otherwise makes it impossible to do so, it’s generally accepted to be OK.

No, not really. In the EU for example, a unauthorized change to one part can legally never void the warranty to an unrelated part.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by yyyk on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:52PM (#23568495)
That's not exactly the same scenario. If Ford allowed installing radios only via Ford and allowed other companies to sell radios via Ford, but then artificially restricted said radios so that its radios would have an advantage then it would apply, and I suspect that people would be upset.

Here's IMHO a better analogy: Apple is running a mall, while also operating a chain store operating in said mall. Apple Mall allows competitors to Apple Chain Store to rent stores in the mall.

However, it turns out that for some reason, there are "Beware of Leopard" signs near the competitor stores. Also, the public area near them is never cleaned or maintained, except for signs promising cheaper products at the Apple Chain Store (and the leopard signs of course).

Would that be legal? Apple Mall is hardly a monopoly. Despite losing the location, the other stores could move. None of the agreements specifically bans this.

For some reason though, I don't think that would fly - the other stores have a reasonable expectation that after paying rent Apple won't sabotage them. Just like companies paying for the Developer License and Apple Store tax have a reasonable expectation Apple won't unduly hinder them for its own products.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by dwaite on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:26AM (#23572332)
> That's not exactly the same scenario. If Ford allowed installing radios only via Ford and allowed other companies to sell radios via Ford, but then artificially restricted said radios so that its radios would have an advantage then it would apply, and I suspect that people would be upset.

This happens all the time. Integration of the radio and climate control system/navigation system. Custom wiring for the speaker system and accessory systems. Dashboard cavities which are a non-standard size.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by yyyk on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:52AM (#23591283)
Not remotely comparable. Ford may not facilitate creating such a radio, but prevent it either. A company could figure out everything and sell a radio to a client without paying Ford or being sold to the customer by Ford or going via Ford at all or even losing warranty.

Ultimately, being a marketmaker comes with responsibilities. If Apple wants to close iPhones and support only Apple software they could do that. But as long as Apple operates an App Store and does not allow other methods of install, this comes with the legal obligation to play fair.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by sudosysgen on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:44PM (#23578188)
Sure, and if someone makes a radio that fulfills all of these functions, then they can sell it.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by mikestew on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:01PM (#23565761)
And if Ford says that installing a third party radio without their authorization voids your warranty or otherwise makes it impossible to do so, it’s generally accepted to be OK.

Don't know where you live, but that is not true in the U. S. "It is generally accepted as" against Federal law.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Someone on Thursday June 18, 2020 @06:50PM (#23569018)
Technically, I think it, unfortunately, is true that companies can say that in the USA and many other countries.

Companies can say things they know aren’t true, misleading customers. They even often can make it hard for customers who know their rights to exercise those rights.

I think it would be an improvement if such actions were punished harsher and more often.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by viridian on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:06PM (#23565816)
The federal trade commission disagrees with you, and if this is the crux of Apple's defense they are in a bad spot.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by scarface74 on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:21AM (#23575362)
The FTC can agree or disagree. Until a judge decides it doesn’t matter.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by ksec on Friday June 19, 2020 @05:07AM (#23572622)
Except there are hundreds of Cars manufacture to chose from, easily portable, and all share the same public road transport.

You have two system to choose from, Apple and Google.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Despegar on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:03PM (#23566462)
Your analogy was good until the part about warranty, which isn't relevant to Apple.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by kelnos on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:48PM (#23568450)
I too feel a little weird about "iOS app ecosystem" as the definition of a market that matters for anti-trust regulation, but at the same time consider that smartphones are not fungible goods. People generally choose iPhone vs. Android for particular reasons, and then often stay on those platforms because of features that aren't available on the competing platform, or just because they've succumbed to ecosystem lock-in. Switching to the other platform isn't just a matter of swapping out a piece of hardware: it involves installing or finding workalike applications, often manually re-entering data, and sometimes losing access to DRMed purchases.

Given that, "iOS App Store" does start feeling like a market that should be regulated as its own entity.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by scarface74 on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:22AM (#23575376)
Name one popular app that is not cross platform? How many apps have people paid for on iOS that are not subscription based and work on both platforms? Most money from apps Ecome from in app purchases from whales of pay to win games or subscriptions. How much data would really need to be “manually re-entered”?
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by kelnos on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:16AM (#23624033)
That's fair, but doesn't invalidate all the other reasons why switching from iOS to Android is prohibitively difficult. It's laughable to suggest there's no lock-in at all. And some people just like iOS itself.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by AsyncAwait on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:30PM (#23565414)
Apple does not have a monopoly in the smartphone market, but it does have a dominant position there and a monopoly in the tablet segment where it does the same thing.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Despegar on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:42PM (#23565547)
"Monopoly power" and "dominance" mean the same thing. One is used in the US, the other in the EU. You're going to have a tough time getting a court to agree that Apple is dominant in smartphones in the EU.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Mindwipe on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:04PM (#23565803)
> You're going to have a tough time getting a court to agree that Apple is dominant in smartphones in the EU.

No you're not. The definition of dominance in the EU is primarily that you're in a position to materially affect market pricing, which I think is actually pretty easy to demonstrate in Apple's case.

Overwhelming market share isn't required, and there are several cases that have found companies to be "dominant" where they had less than 50% market share in the EU.

(As a good demonstration of this Google's own competition law settlement on Android apps pre-installation in the EU. Google do not approach anything like having a monopoly market share in the EU either, but they still settled because they were going to lose.)

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by JimDabell on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:25PM (#23566031)
> The definition of dominance in the EU is primarily that you're in a position to materially affect market pricing, which I think is actually pretty easy to demonstrate in Apple's case.

Is it? App Store prices have been a race to the bottom for years, yet it's clearly in Apple’s interests to keep the prices high, both to keep their revenue from the service as high as possible and to stimulate the app economy. If they had control over the market pricing, why did the race to the bottom happen and why haven't Apple stopped it?

If the argument is that they don't care about the revenue and they actually prefer the prices as low as possible to add value to their hardware devices, then why are Apple charging 30% and not 0%?

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by Mindwipe on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:23PM (#23566721)
I don't really agree that's relevant to be honest. The affect on pricing can be quite wide. For example, the EU will not have an issue finding developers who will say they priced their product 30% higher on all platforms than they otherwise might have because they knew the had to pay the Apple surcharge and Apple do not permit you to charge extra to cover their cut (except then they sometimes arbitrarily do! But that's not what the terms say).
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by dwaite on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:34AM (#23572383)
Apple had those clauses (I believe they are referred to as ‘Most Favored Nation’ clauses) but I believe removed them after the US E-Book settlement.

They still may be attached to marketing and partnership opportunities I believe, though - you might not be featured in the store if you charge iOS users more than android or web users, just like they will probably not advertise a new movie or album if Amazon is allowed to sell it for a lower price.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by AsyncAwait on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:09PM (#23565849)
A monopoly means you're pretty much the only viable supplier/provider for a particular segment of the market. A dominant player is someone who isn't an outright monopoly, but nonetheless has a sizable market share and can influence pricing, competition, (i.e. by its patent licensing terms and deals with key component OEMs), the ability to set or influence standards etc.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by oillio on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:15PM (#23565911)
Apple has control of the iOS App market. It is a pretty large barrier for a customer need to switch platforms to get an app that Apple has denied access.

I am not a lawyer, but that sure smells like the potential for monopolistic control.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by snowwrestler on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:37PM (#23566930)
This is like saying 7-11 has a monopoly on what is sold in 7-11 stores.

If I want a copy of the King James Bible and 7-11 chooses not to sell that, I have to leave 7-11 and go find another store that does. Yes, that's a barrier I have to go through to get my Bible. Should the government make it 7-11's responsibility to solve that for me?

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by munk-a on Thursday June 18, 2020 @04:33PM (#23567684)
I'm not certain how this is considered to be analogous - is the assumption that other retailers would need to forward customers to 7/11 when 7/11 carries a good a client is interested in?

As a possibly better analogy... Let's say I run a Flea market and also direct sell some items to customers. I charge independent retailers a fee for setting up a booth in my market space and don't excise that same fee from my own booths. Then I go to open a booth in a local mall to help sell some of my directly vendored items and raise an exception all the way to city hall that the mall attempting to charge me for running a booth in their property is impeding the free flow of commerce and hurting the local economy - while I continue to charge booths in my market space for operating.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by tanjtanjtanj on Thursday June 18, 2020 @04:53PM (#23567895)
> and raise an exception all the way to city hall that the mall attempting to charge me for running a booth in their property is impeding the free flow of commerce and hurting the local economy

Except Apple has never made that argument to anyone. They simply added a way to pay for their subscription directly in their app rather than in the Play Store; Something Google allows.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by munk-a on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:52PM (#23568505)
If I lease space to you on a profit sharing based model (i.e. you don't have to pay any standard rent but you need to forward 20% of what you make in lieu of rent to use the space) and you start giving product away to customers for "free" but then force them to pay the actual price under the table then you're committing fraud. Whether you think 30% of transaction value is a fair price or not for the costs of running an AppStore (I don't think so - it's ridiculously high proportion-wise) that's the agreement. Apple comes down hard on people who run microtransactions via alternate payment methods in application on their platform and yet that's exactly what they're doing in the Play Store - it is something that Google allows, but it would violate Apple's ToS.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by scarface74 on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:28AM (#23575430)
There is no prohibition to allowing subscriptions outside of the App Store - even at a lower price. Apple is saying you must also allow subscriptions in the store. Whether you agree or not is different.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by kelnos on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:54PM (#23568533)
I don't think this is a particularly good analogy.

If 7-11 doesn't sell a bible and I want to buy a bible, I go to another store that sells bibles and buy one there. It's not like my house will refuse to allow me to bring a non-7-11 product inside.

If the iOS App Store doesn't sell a particular app, then I have no alternative (aside from "buying a different house", which IMO is unreasonable), because Apple doesn't let non-App-Store apps onto iOS devices.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by dwaite on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:39AM (#23572414)
For a literal bible you would have options, because you can use a standard format like ePub or PDF. Your limitations come if you try to mandate your own DRM, since the platform won’t understand it.

For an annotated bible application, you would have the option of a web-based application, which has certain trade-offs.

Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by bjt on Thursday June 18, 2020 @04:58PM (#23567951)
A big chunk of the arguing in an antitrust case is about how the relevant market should be defined. A plaintiff bringing a suit against Apple might define it as "the market for iOS apps", but Apple's lawyers would argue for something much more broad, like the "the market for computer software". My hunch is that the court would probably land somewhere in the middle like "the market for mobile apps." Apple's still a big player there but far from a monopolist.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by scarface74 on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:26AM (#23575408)
Yes and the consoles have control of their market and Amazon has control over the Kindle.
Re:Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details t... by heisenbit on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:16AM (#23571537)
To what extent is this about Apple and not also about Google who is the other party of the deal? In that case the market is unquestionably the whole smartphone market.