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Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by nurettin on Monday June 15, 2020 @06:33PM (#23533853)
> Don't just build Something™, build an industry leading product that customers want and love!

The point of writing software is to get paid. If the process leads to something actually useful, good on you. If not, you still got paid. It was just a drill, life continues.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by kristopolous on Monday June 15, 2020 @10:30PM (#23535401)
It's really wild how different people's reasons can be for doing the same thing.

I think a better future world is still possible and needs to be built by passionate people. I'm in software to try to do my small part in getting there.

I probably won't succeed but that's why it's a BHAG. I also don't ever want kids, a spouse, and am perfectly happy riding the bus or a bike so yeah, my annual income needs are usually met somewhere around February and lounging around gets old eventually.

Your system sometimes works better ... I really can't do anything unless I'm passionate about it. I can sit in a chair from 6am-11pm and will get nothing done for weeks if I don't believe in it. It's stupid and I need to get over it.

I kinda wish someone waving some cash in front of my face was enough to get me to do something. That'd be much easier because I could be the one waving it.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by robocat on Monday June 15, 2020 @07:24PM (#23534253)
That advice is OKish if you only ever want to be a mediocre employee clocking in to get your wages.

I think you need to be far more proactive in training your mind if you want to become a founder [edit: of a successful business], or move into more responsible roles, or even just to get satisfaction from shipping great software.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by throwawaywrench on Monday June 15, 2020 @08:03PM (#23534509)
>if you want to become a founder

Why do you need to work up to being a founder? Any bozo can start something new especially given that the vast majority of start ups either never go anywhere or flame out somewhere in the first year or two. Even I've "become a founder" a couple of times.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by ReactiveJelly on Monday June 15, 2020 @09:05PM (#23534899)
Right, my goal is not to become a founder, my goal is to live a long time and retire.

I used to be pretty close with the founder of my company and his life doesn't look like any fun.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by hejja on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @05:40AM (#23537330)
a lot of people see being "a founder" as a goal because it gives you complete agency in your work.

you could in theory define it as having a sole-proprietorship type lifestyle business.

it's poignant in this thread because many people have worked on "meaningless" projects within a company for years on end - and you don't have a choice.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by saberdancer on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @03:23AM (#23536722)
One of the major benefits to having a less invested attitude is that you are not as annoyed or disappointed when things don't work out. In the end, most of us do not have a stake in the product we are building and the success of the product has only minor effect on the developer, by understanding it's a job and not life you will be happier overall if the project does not succeed.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by product50 on Monday June 15, 2020 @11:49PM (#23535785)
This is terrible advice and this type of thinking is a common indicator of an employee who is not motivated. The goal is to not just build but build products customers want.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by shultays on Monday June 15, 2020 @08:06PM (#23534528)
That is highly subjective. Money is a motivation but some people seeks more from their jobs. I wouldn't work on a job if it is not really giving me a sense of accomplishment either.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by extra_rice on Monday June 15, 2020 @08:24PM (#23534643)
I currently work on a project that has struggled to make actual sense for a few years now. Sure I like getting paid, but there's a growing void in my soul.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by ntsplnkv2 on Monday June 15, 2020 @10:37PM (#23535436)
> Money is a motivation but some people seeks more from their jobs.

I find this has a lower bound in terms of salary, and people find that lower bound is much higher than they like to admit.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 15, 2020 @10:28PM (#23535388)
Jobs where this kind of attitude prevails suck to work at. Frustration waits around every corner. And the more pointless projects and dysfunction permeates a company the more chance the other shoe will come crashing down any moment and the company will fall apart and people will lose their jobs.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by kristopolous on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @01:09AM (#23536098)
Some people are busy raising a family and just need a paycheck.

It's not me either but I get it.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by tluyben2 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @02:36AM (#23536497)
Highly anecdotal, but 100% of the software devs I know in this position (living paycheck to paycheck) are living above their means, in a city. If they moved to the countryside (in another country if need be), they would have to work 2 months a year with the same pay with a larger house, garden, savings etc. After covid it is actually easy to do, but before as well if you are not completely horrible at your job. However, they are never going to do it; they need to live where they live for some reason.

In that case; I do not get it. Moving is easy, at least in the EU. They could own their house (there are many houses for sale in villages and country across the EU for 50-100k with garden etc so even in a tight city wage you can immediately own and rapidly pay off a house) and suddenly save money. But then again, I am not attached to places and especially not cities (finally a lucky bet with covid) so maybe I just do not get it.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @04:44AM (#23537100)
I feel like your version of reality is different to the one most people live in.

Highly skilled people live in big expensive cities because that's where the best jobs and most professional and social opportunities are.

Once you move to the countryside your jobs and networking opportunities plummet and you'll have to endure a soul crushing commute unless you work remotely or your house and your job are close to train stations on the same route, not to mention, at least in Austria, shit internet.

People want to live with or interact with like minded people and it's much easier to find what your looking for in a big city. The countryside is lonelier and more conservative.

Sure, you can have a lot of space and a garden, but not everyone is into that and most would prefer to have the amenities of a city: sports gyms, cinemas, cafes, bars, meetups, good doctors without having to drive everywhere or wait for a train.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by tluyben2 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @11:51AM (#23540607)
Sure, my point is, then you have to suck up the fact that you live from paycheck to paycheck (which was what I was responding to). You don't need to but you choose to, that's fine.

And nah, never had this much work, my network is only growing (and I have not lived in a city for 20 years), I don't need to commute because remote work is great (for the past 25 years). I meet plenty of like minded people on the internet; for me that works. Not saying it's for anyone, but it works for me (and my family and friends by the way).

But yeah, everyone should do what they want and like; just saying there are alternatives if you don't want to live from paycheck to paycheck and live in a city.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:56AM (#23538577)
Hah I live above my means and need a high salary _because_ I moved out into the countryside. Maybe it's different where you are, but living in the country is expensive. It won't look like it from the outside, but ...

My home insurance, my heating, my Internet, my electricity, all cost more than if I was urban. I own and maintain my own water supply and sewer system (septic). I have power lines coming up from the road, over a hedge of cedars that cost me $2000 to trim every few years or they'll impede the power lines. On my property, so mine to deal with.

I had to buy a little diesel tractor ($15,000), I had to buy a zero turn mower ($5000) because mowing 2.5acres (out of the 6 acres I have) would take forever otherwise. We need two cars because of where we are.

And property taxes are super high for me. They'd be cheaper if this was an active farm business making over $7000 CAD a year, but it's not. Because how could I do that while also working a full time job?

And yeah, the commute. Not fun. No gas costs really because I drive electric and plug in at work (and home), but still.

But I have chickens and an orchard and a woodworking shop, and make wine from my own vineyard, and have room in the garage for a Saab 900 SPG that I will restore...someday... and my kids have lots of yard to look out at while they sit inside instead and watch videos of people playing video games ...

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by tluyben2 on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @11:55AM (#23540662)
I guess we live a similar life but in a different country (Canada vs Portugal?) which probably accounts for the difference. All those things you say are true but they just don't cost anything here and, besides that, it's mostly alway warm so those costs we don't have. I don't commute as I have forever worked from home (with rising salary, also forever).

We have chickens, many (fruit)trees, make beer, cider and wine. Outside gym. Pizza oven. It's great.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @02:39PM (#23542564)
yeah, it's partially because i still need to be able to commute to work, so I have to be within the greater toronto/hamilton region, which is really expensive.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by tluyben2 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @06:56AM (#23561865)
Nice! I been there many times. One of the things I would've told myself travelling back is to move to Canada in some mountain village. Too late now, but that always drew me there.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by noisy_boy on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @07:36AM (#23537936)
Agreed on that. Also, sometimes it is both. One does enjoy the parts of the job that provide satisfaction because most decent programmers by heart do enjoy fruitful creation. And then sometimes there are shitty pieces of work or dealing with people who are a piece of work. In such times, it actually helps to disassociate a bit from the work and look at the monetary side - until the sky clears. The key point is _sometimes_ and the expectation that the sky _does_ clear.

To be clear, I don't suggest this to those who are in the throes of software engineering passion and their work is part of who they are - sometimes may be too many times for them.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:50AM (#23538502)
Don't get me wrong, that's me. I have two kids, a wife, and a hobby farm to pay for. But a shitty work environment is still shitty, and it's not like there aren't lots of jobs to choose from in our industry...
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @02:07AM (#23536360)
I wish I could do it, life would have been much easier.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by gloryless on Monday June 15, 2020 @11:59PM (#23535834)
I don't think it is. In my experience this attitude produces poor work and is a drain on the rest of the team.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by nurettin on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @03:11AM (#23536656)
My experience is that realistic people who are solution oriented are valuable. Those tantric attitude people are unemployable.
Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by sanitycheck on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @05:42AM (#23537339)
I agree with you, but I would add that on most software projects it's possible to find a way to derive satisfaction from the work.

Solving problems and writing elegant code is good, whether it's running the next Amazon or streaming intrusive ads to a Smart Toothbrush or whatever. (I'd draw a line at weapons systems, gambling, automated extortion etc - but YMMV.)

Economic value rarely correlates to more 'human' measures of value - which is depressing but nevertheless useful to me as someone whose skills are societally useless but moderately lucrative. I suspect many of us here are in the same boat.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by bowlich on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @03:36AM (#23536793)
Except when management finally wises up and realizes the product has no future... neither do you.

Much better to look around and find the product/project that is actually going to spawn revenue for the company and get on that team. When layoffs come, you've a much better chance of weathering the storm.*

* No guarantee that management won't do something stupid and lay off the golden egg under some stubborn belief the money sink will someday take off.

Re:How many of you know that the team is working on somethin... by trixie_ on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @02:40AM (#23536523)
That's like your opinion. I write software because it's fun. Getting paid is icing on the cake.