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Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by chrisseaton on Saturday June 13, 2020 @09:39AM (#23509273)
> This works if browser is the only application that runs on machine.

I don't understand what you mean - individual applications within a multi-application system can absolutely utilise multiple cores. It isn't true that it won't work. The kernel schedules all the tasks of all applications across the available cores.

And even if you have many applications running, most of them don't need multiple cores all the time, so it makes sense for each application to be able to use as many cores as possible, when the user is looking at it and doing something.

For example if I'm using my text editor and browsing docs. My text editor only needs tiny a fraction of a core every now and again, but each time I navigate it'd be great if the browser temporarily used all sixteen cores to do that as quickly as possible.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by paulryanrogers on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:01AM (#23509400)
While true one concern is that proliferation of threads/processes per application could reach the point where context switching and thread management alone consume a lot of the capacity. IIRC super computers often need special interconnects and software to minimize the distribution costs of so many cores.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:10AM (#23509452)
"supercomputers" are designed (typically) to run CPU-bound tasks.

User applications with GUIs are almost never CPU-bound, so the comparison is not really appropriate.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by corty on Saturday June 13, 2020 @09:00PM (#23514237)
Common misconception. Most supercomputer tasks are communication-bound or memory-throughput-bound, and devs just try to fill the resulting slack with more work.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by chrisseaton on Saturday June 13, 2020 @11:35AM (#23510150)
> User applications with GUIs are almost never CPU-bound

I watch live streams of music producers working with DAWs and they actually end up needing to offload synthesis and filtering to multiple separate machines as they can't do it on one.

Also if you think things aren't CPU-bound then why do you think people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on CPUs?

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday June 13, 2020 @04:11PM (#23512292)
I'm the author of a crossplatform DAW. I know what they are capable of. Also, that story of multiple systems is becoming a thing of the past in these days of 32 core ryzen threadrippers.

The vast majority of what the vast majority of users do on computers remains non-CPU-bound. I chose not enumerate all the exceptions, because as usual, they are exceptions.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by bfrog on Saturday June 13, 2020 @05:49PM (#23513075)
I'd assume the author of ardour knows what they are talking about! I remember running most things just fine on a dual athlon mp, cubase and ardour. Granted this is quite awhile ago.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by chrisseaton on Saturday June 13, 2020 @09:12PM (#23514301)
This seems contradictory to me.

Most people aren't doing CPU-bound work and there's no point parallelising your application... but people are buying 32-core processors? Why do you think they're doing that?

I'm just a normal developer and I am very frequently CPU-bound in my work, and I see many other people in other fields also CPU-bound. I'd absolutely love to have a massive Xeon in my laptop. I think it'd have a genuine impact on my productivity.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:32PM (#23514639)
"Just a normal developer" ... you're already in a tiny minority of computer users.

And sure, as someone who regularly spends 4 minutes waiting for my 16 core threadripper to build my application, I appreciate the sentiment.

But ... this is very very far from the majority of computer users do and quite far from what "supercomputers" are used for (frequent, repeated, long lived CPU-bound workloads).

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by paulryanrogers on Saturday June 13, 2020 @11:17AM (#23510012)
> User applications with GUIs are almost never CPU-bound, so the comparison is not really appropriate.

Video conferencing, JS heavy web browsing, video editing, and gaming are all examples of CPU-intense applications that are becoming increasingly common

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by cmrdporcupine on Sunday June 14, 2020 @04:53PM (#23521271)
Of the things you listed only JS would count as "CPU intense" in the strict definition of CPU as microprocessor unit; the others are typically bound on specialized hardware -- hardware video encoders/decoders, and GPUs.

And, having done plenty of video dev work recently, beyond the codecs and GPUs, it's also memory bandwidth/lock contention/data path that's really key for getting good video performance. We're almost never decoding or encoding video by CPU anymore. If we can avoid it.

Arguably with JS heavy web browsing you're also looking at memory bandwidth or lock contention as a key limitation -- garbage collection in the JS interpreter, fetching and dispatching opcodes, etc. CPU is only part of the story.

Life just became so so very complicated in the 90s when CPU performance started to compltely outstrip main memory and bus performance.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday June 13, 2020 @04:15PM (#23512317)
1) I don't tend to think of games as applications with GUIs, but you're right, they really are, and yes, they can be CPU-bound sometimes. However, a game that was actually CPU-bound would be very unpleasant to play. That's not true for the applications that run on super-computers: they just take longer to run that someone would like.

2) video conferencing is not CPU-bound unless you're doing 1-to-many/many-to-1 feeds locally.

3) JS heavy web browsing ... 'nuff said.

4) Very few people do video editing that is CPU bound. Certainly for video editors, it is an issue.

Clearly, I should have said:

  "The majority of applications used by the majority of users are rarely CPU-bound"
But more importantly: even the exceptions are really nothing like "supercomputer workloads".
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by wolrah on Saturday June 13, 2020 @01:45PM (#23511161)
> While true one concern is that proliferation of threads/processes per application could reach the point where context switching and thread management alone consume a lot of the capacity.

Have you ever played around with BeOS or its community-driven successor Haiku? They are what's called "pervasively multithreaded" such that every single widget in the standard UI toolkit has its own thread. It's literally possible in BeOS/Haiku to lower the priority of a single radio button.

This is an OS designed around early '90s era dual CPU hardware. Considering that they made this choice at that time and still ended up with an OS that's remembered primarily for its performance and responsiveness when multitasking it seems hard to believe that threading overhead itself is too big of a deal even at extreme levels.

> IIRC super computers often need special interconnects and software to minimize the distribution costs of so many cores.

This is for entirely different reasons. The specialized supercomputer interconnects exist to minimize the cost of sharing data across nodes. Basically they provide DMA over a network fabric. It only really matters once your workload is large enough that you can't just throw a larger single machine at it but also impossible to split up in to smaller chunks that would fit within individual nodes.

If you're familiar with NUMA in multi-socket systems (or first-gen Epyc/Threadripper) you can think of the supercomputer interconnects as basically extending that principle up another tier to encompass multiple independent servers.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by waddlesplash on Saturday June 13, 2020 @02:32PM (#23511532)
> It's literally possible in BeOS/Haiku to lower the priority of a single radio button.

This is not true, individual widgets most definitely do not have their own threads. Windows each have their own threads, which is indeed different from virtually every other OS which does not have this (or even allow off-the-main-thread UI operations.)

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by ygra on Sunday June 14, 2020 @06:43AM (#23516638)
WPF can have a different Dispatcher per window, but inded, that's a fairly rare capability. I can't say I've ever needed to use this, though.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by int_19h on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @08:03PM (#23545927)
Win32 in general allows multiple threads each with its own UI event loop and associated windows.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by c-smile on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:09AM (#23509441)
It depends... On Raspberry Pi for example (ARM device) parallel compilation (make ... -j 4) makes its UI completely non-responsive.

The only reasonable option for UI rendering these days (high-DPI monitors) is to delegate rasterization to GPU. CPU is for running application logic. If you would do UI on CPU then this will be the only task your CPU will do. E.g. animations require stable frame rate (60 FPS or more) so UI must run on highest possible priority on your OS.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by freeone3000 on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:28AM (#23509585)
-j4 on a pi freezes the UI because you're using 100% of all cores continually for minutes - smaller chunks of work and better scheduling (or the "trick" of -j3) fixes this, and it's doubtful that a browser uses 100% of CPU for any length of time.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by c-smile on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:53AM (#23509800)
I know how to tackle such problems.

My comment is rather about "multi-core UI". Many UI tasks have almost real-time requirements (animations, synchronized rendering, video) so they behave as "make -j 4" meaning that the device is just busy rasterizing pixels but not doing anything meaningful.

And all that while we have dedicated powerful (YMMV) GPU that supposed to do those for us.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by chrisseaton on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:58AM (#23509840)
I don't think you can run layout code on a GPU effectively. It isn't a data-parallel problem.

Obviously actual pixel rendering is is done on a GPU - why would you do it it anywhere else, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by freeone3000 on Saturday June 13, 2020 @11:01AM (#23509867)
It's real-time but not particularly CPU-hungry. Playback an animation and see how much CPU time it actually uses - you'll end up yielding most of the time, so other apps can use the remainder just fine.
Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by hedora on Saturday June 13, 2020 @10:39AM (#23509676)
If make -j4 makes your UI unresponsive, it is probably due to swapping. The CPU scheduler lowers the priority of CPU intensive tasks over time.

It could be that you need to “renice -5” X11 or something (I think some distributions used to tweak the UI runtime priorities. Not sure if they still do.)

Re:Flow browser passes the Acid tests by gruez on Saturday June 13, 2020 @01:39PM (#23511122)
>On Raspberry Pi for example (ARM device) parallel compilation (make ... -j 4) makes its UI completely non-responsive.

Have you tried using nice(1) to set the make's priority lower?