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Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by 40four on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:59AM (#23485342)
I think it is more complicated than that.

Almost all states very early on had some level of 'lock-down', stay at home order, or what have you. This has limited movement of people, and as a side effect, or maybe even direct order from governors, closed down/ limited many business. Including hospitals.

Hospitals in America, believe it nor not, are for profit businesses. It is un-intuitive, but many of them are in serious financial trouble, despite the influx of Covid-19 patients. At a cursory level, I think most people would assume the hospital business is booming, but this assumption couldn't be more wrong.

At this point, nobody wants to go in for routine examinations or non-emergency procedures. For-profit hospitals (almost all of them are) as a business, depend on providing these non-emergency services/ surgeries/ procedures. Hospitals across the country are laying off health-care workers en-masse.

So it is not correct to imagine all hospitals are running at full capacity, and burning out their workers. In fact, many health care professionals are drawing unemployment at this point.

I know this is doesn't make sense at the surface level, but it is something we all need to consider when continuing to advocate for lock-down or stay at home strategies. Our economy depends on movement of people/ goods/ services. That includes hospitals. I wish there was more serious discussion about this, and how we keep things moving as much as possible, while also protecting one another from spreading the virus.

Lock-down alone is not an solution. If your areas hospitals are at risk of reaching capacity, for sure close it down. But almost nowhere in America outside of NY/NJ is there a risk of that right now. We've tried it for a while, but now we have more understanding. Now I want us to re-imagine how we can continue a life of movement, and also reduce risk of infection.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by gvjddbnvdrbv on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:21AM (#23485430)
Everything you wrote is weird and simply shows that you need a proper health care system over there.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by dannyw on Thursday June 11, 2020 @04:27AM (#23486443)
America isn’t going to transform their healthcare market in the next several months.

We can be ideological and let hospitals fail and doctors and nurses get laid off, or we can be pragmatic and focus on what creates the best outcome as we navigate the reality we are in.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by dillonmckay on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:26AM (#23486828)
The US cannot even prevent its own law enforcement from maiming innocent citizens, so I would not hold my breath for any healthcare reform.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by ThomPete on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:28AM (#23487662)
Americas healthcare system has it's flaws but the benefits amongst others is that it keeps being able to afford to invest in new research and methods and to specialize. It's the advantage of being a profit center.

This is much harder in universal healthcare systems that are cost centers and thus can't just decide to change to a newer better method. Furthermore, the universal healthcare system have to budget who gets what kind of medicine. So while all people gets treated the same way not all illnesses does.

Everything have pros and cons. The US system is much better in some ways and have shortfalls in others and vice versa.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by gvjddbnvdrbv on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:41AM (#23489414)
I recently had a successful experimental surgery in this countries nationalised health service. Interestingly the idea had come from a study where the surgery I had was a control group and the 'real' group had a stem cell therapy as well. My problem was resolved, the single payer system didn't waste $100,000 on stem cell therapy. Good result. In the privatised system that carried out the original study the additional stem cell therapy is being done. It seems like optimising for profit optimises for cost.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by gambiting on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:56AM (#23490161)
I just wanted to add a story as well - my dad was diagnosed with a very rare type of stomach cancer called GIST about 15 years ago in Poland. At the time, he was one of ~6 other people in the entire country with this diagnosis, and the diagnosis was....bleak to say the least, I think the doctors were cautiously giving him 6-12 months max. However, company Novartis has just certified their "Glivec" drug specifically to use against GIST, since it targets the same cell pathways. Now, the problem - Poland does have nationalized healthcare, but Glivec was insanely expensive - basically a box of Glivec cost around as much as an annual pay for many people in Poland at the time....and my dad had to take two boxes per month. And no, because it hasn't been proven to work against GIST yet, it was not on the list of refunded drugs - so my dad was placed on a controlled trial conducted by the largest oncological hospital in Warsaw, where the study funded the drug for him. Long story short - the drug worked miracles, my dad not only recovered, he lived another decade after that(died of another cancer that sadly didn't have a miracle cure this time).

But - other people in this study didn't get the drug. I don't know if they were given placebo or just something else instead. My point being - they didn't survive, my dad did. After the study was concluded, the drug is now paid for by the national health service and anyone who needs Glivec can get it.

So why isn't this a critique of the nationalized system? Well, because the way I see it - in a private health care system, no one in this group would survive, because no one in Poland could ever afford this treatment. At least some of the people were still given a chance because the system has enough flexibility to at least try new and experimental treatments.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by pphysch on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:51AM (#23489523)
You're omitting that it's only a single digit % of the population that gets access to these expensive, specialized treatments.

The US has the best healthcare system in the world--if you're a millionaire.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by aerostable_slug on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:14PM (#23490988)
Anecdotes and all that, but a friend of mine had Deep Brain Stimulation surgery for his essential tremor. The surgery was performed at Stanford and the total bill was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. His out of pocket charge? ~$1200.

I have a hard time rationalizing his recent experience with the assertion that you have to be a millionaire to receive top-flight care.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by ryandrake on Thursday June 11, 2020 @04:51PM (#23493169)
Your friend must have outstanding insurance. Our out-of-pocket for a standard run-of-the-mill baby delivery with no complications was several thousand dollars--after what I thought was pretty good tech-company provided health insurance. I'll never forget my wife's reaction (who is not from the USA) at how absurd it is that someone would have to pay any money, let alone thousands of dollars, to have a baby.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by gvjddbnvdrbv on Saturday June 13, 2020 @06:16AM (#23508382)
I'm against the concept of privatised healthcare completely but within the privatised paradigm insurance only works properly to share risk across a population. A normal birth is not really an insurable event. Normal births are not a risk (in the sense of risk being a semi random events) since on average each women an America has about 2 in their life. In a privatised system insurance make sense as something to cover the risk of complications during a birth. So in a functioning privatised system with insurance working as it theoretically should any birth whether simple or with huge complications should cost the same amount of money. This is similar to dental most people spend X±Y amount of money over their life on dental work where X is high and Y is low. Insurance only works properly where X is lower and Y is higher (for example getting a rare cancer that costs $1million to treat is a very insurable event). Where dental is covered by 'insurance' the person paying for the insurance policy would be better just paying the dentist directly.

Meanwhile I am glad I live in a society with a nationalized health system where births cost nothing.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by aerostable_slug on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @06:31PM (#23545099)
I have never figured out what "outstanding" insurance is, and my late father was a physician.

I just go with a PPO because that seems less crappy than the alternative. If anyone knows what metric leads to outcomes like my friend's (I'm not being facetious here), I would like to know.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by akiselev on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:36AM (#23485507)
> At this point, nobody wants to go in for routine examinations or non-emergency procedures. For-profit hospitals (almost all of them are) as a business, depend on providing these non-emergency services/ surgeries/ procedures. Hospitals across the country are laying off health-care workers en-masse.

Nitpick: Over half of US hospitals are nonprofits or government owned [1] though I believe hospitals are vastly outnumbered by private clinics and independent practices. Doesn't change your overall point - even the hospitals run by governments, the Catholic church, and other institutions have budgets and are watching their main incomes disappear without much hope for the near future.

[1] https://www.aha.org/statistics/fast-facts-us-hospitals

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by m0zg on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:06AM (#23485648)
While factually true, this does not defeat the point: those non-profit and public hospitals rely on paid procedures to pay their employees. And yes, those employees are furloughed and laid off en masse.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by Spooky23 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:14AM (#23488476)
Government owned or Non-profit isn't as meaningful as you might think. End of the day, hospitals live on Medicare admissions for cash flow (ie. old people) and surgery for profit. Old people are staying home, people aren't hurting themselves on the couch, etc.

Government owned is only meaningful with the Federal government, which has unlimited resources.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by 40four on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:22AM (#23487618)
Thanks, I see now that I overstated the number of for profit hospitals. You are right, though. They all depend on us using them.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by rsanek on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:31AM (#23485482)
Actually, over half of US hospitals are not-for-profit and another quarter are public. Only a small minority are for-profit. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_hospital
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by stickfigure on Thursday June 11, 2020 @01:47AM (#23485558)
This fact is missing something essential; Kaiser Permanente is a nonprofit but it sure isn't what you think of when you use that term. Also, it's something of a minor nit - nonprofit corporations need revenue too.

My wife is a nurse for Dignity Health (another "nonprofit" hospital here in California) and has been effectively laid off for the last couple months. It's great that the ER is empty, but in the mean time nurses are struggling and people aren't getting their cancer screenings. If this goes on long enough, our healthcare system will fall apart from atrophy, not from overuse.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by unishark on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:06AM (#23485650)
> This fact is missing something essential; Kaiser Permanente is a nonprofit but it sure isn't what you think of when you use that term.

Why is that? You don't think they lay people off in Canada or Japan when there's no patients? Even single-payer systems can have private hospitals. They are simply paid by the govt instead of (or really in addition to) by patients. They still need business and to balance the books.

Canada has a similar mix of all kinds of hospitals like the US, though it may be more slanted in some way.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by fraserharris on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:34AM (#23486138)
Kaiser Permanente is a conglomerate that is a consortium of for-profit and not-for-profit entities. The health plans (insurance) and hospitals are not-for-profit. The physicians are organized into for-profit partnerships.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente#Operations

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by hcknwscommenter on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:21AM (#23485731)
>Kaiser Permanente is a nonprofit but it sure isn't what you think of when you use that term.

Huh? It is exactly what I think of when I use the term non-profit in the context of a healthcare maintenance organization. I truly have no idea what you mean by your quoted statement.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by rscho on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:58AM (#23485917)
He/she means: KP generates a lot of money for some important people, and their marketing and management strategy is as aggressive as for-profit institutions
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by 40four on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:17AM (#23487580)
Oh, thanks. well maybe I’m wrong about the amount of for profit hospitals, I’ll look into it. I realize now that I could have left that part out in my rant. Either way, non profits are affected the same way from lack of traffic/ volume.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by distant_hat on Thursday June 11, 2020 @04:05AM (#23486317)
Lest someone think this is a US thing, this is true in India as well which has a fairly different medical system. Hospitals are struggling to stay afloat and many nurses and ancillary staff have been laid off. Doctors in India are typically independent contractors and not employed by hospitals.

Not only are no non-essential activities happening, many essential ones are also being pushed back and people are dying as a result. There are multiple stories of people not being able to go for dialysis because hospitals insist on a negative COViD test to admit you and authorities don't allow you to get tested if you are not showing COViD symptoms. It is a catch-22 that can be resolved only if you are well-connected or rich.

Also, in knock-on effects, immunization programs are severely impacted, and many infectious diseases are likely to make a huge comeback with the monsoon season since typical mitigating measures for those were put on hold. The non-COViD death toll will be massively above typical years.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by geekybiz on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:21AM (#23487202)
Am from India & agree on this. Lockdowns helped slow the spread but aren't the perpetual answer. And the side-effects of lock-down (like essential services being pushed back) are taking lives. When evaluating lock-down's pros & cons, it always isn't life vs economy. It often also is Covid fatalities vs other fatalities. Atleast in India, that's happening.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by Spooky23 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:11AM (#23488427)
Agreed.

People on the prudent/cautious camp are missing that lockdowns are really last-resort, expensive controls at the bottom of the pyramid, used when better controls fail.

We can't just netflix and chill for the next two years. But we can't just pretend nothing is wrong either!

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by m4rtink on Thursday June 11, 2020 @08:27AM (#23488063)
Well, that's pretty screwed up. For comparison Czech hospitals also scrapped anything non essential during the worst part of the local outbreak, both to have capacity for treating coronavirus patients and to reduce the chance of infection spreading through hospitals. At the same time a strong lockdown was done country wide.

This was apparently effective with cases limited to a few clusters at the moment & most of the lockdown restrictions removed by now.

Were the hospitals affected ? They did report funding shortfals right after the lockdown due to all the cancelled elective procedures, so the ministry of health simply gave them extra money to cover the lockdown loses. And at the moment most hospitals are back to normal workflow.

Also, the people involved in directly handling the infection got bonuses as a thank you for doing the needed but dangerous work.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by skybrian on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:15AM (#23486033)
It seems like the root financial problem isn't for-profit versus non-profit, it's pay-per-procedure? This is like paying the fire department based on how many fires they put out. Medicare seems no better.

(I would guess that Kaiser might be doing somewhat better since they're paid monthly but their finances aren't easy to find.)

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by Spooky23 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:28AM (#23488608)
There are four scenarios at a very high level. It an uber complex system and the amount of time and money wasted in optimizing and managing revenue cycles is almost incalculable. If you compare it to any complex large scale system it's sickening to look at the waste -- even the military looks like an efficient machine in comparison. (In some ways)

Medicare pays on a set scale for performance. If you have a heart attack, they pay a fee for the surgery and x days of hospitalization and x days of rehab. If the hospital gets you home in x-3 days, they make money. If the hospital fucks up and you get an infection and stay for x+10 days, they eat it.

Medicaid is a PPO that pays on a per procedure basis. Their rates suck, but they don't care about quality for the most part. There's a billing optimization process to maximize revenue for poor old people. (Some things are better billed to Medicare, others to Medicaid)

Private insurance pays for whatever they cover at a rate of y+z% over the Medicare rate. The patient gets the bill for whatever else happens.

Uninsured get whatever treatment is legally necessary. They patch you up, take a loss, kick you out and do it again when you come back.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by Spooky23 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @08:34AM (#23488108)
It's weird that this isn't more widely known. Alot of my friends are in the medical field, and they are taking a beating personally. Stuff like long term 15-20% pay reductions and furloughs in addition to layoffs.

Not only are hospitals for profit, but their part of cartel-like health networks. For some jobs, its hard to jump because 80% of the work is affiliated with two companies regionally.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by jariel on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:51AM (#23485879)
"I know this is doesn't make sense at the surface level,"

No it makes perfect sense, and it doesn't matter if it's 'nonprofit or for-profit' - the inefficient use of resources is just the same.

Hospitals are the most expensive places in the world to run, with very highly trained personnel, gear, etc.. In a socialized system, if they are not used, it's a massive inefficiency.

Now imagine a system where 10's of millions of people are in economic pain - but they still have to foot the bill for unused medical services via taxes.

It's just shifting around deck chairs with respect to where the pain will be borne.

Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by rscho on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:46AM (#23486198)
When a system is socialized, funding is also shifted so that the poorer taxpayers contribute less than the richer ones. So no, it's not just shifting around deck chairs. There's a balance to strike.
Re:I'm Married to an ER Doc in NYC by pjc50 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:31AM (#23487678)
In a centralised system in an emergency, there shouldn't be idle capacity!