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Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by gorgoiler on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @02:34AM (#23474559)
Something about journeying to the deep ocean seems so much more terrifying than space. Perhaps it’s that one cannot “fall” home whenever one wants to, when you are already at the bottom of the sea?

That’s hardly rational though. After all, if anything goes wrong in the ocean, your buddies can just pull you up. If something goes wrong in space you drift into oblivion. If you are tethered in space and the safety rope breaks its game over. Just as if one was deep in the ocean without positive buoyancy.

And then space itself is all fun and games when in orbit around Earth. If, when facing the planet, you are feeling existentially terrified by there being simultaneously nothing and half of all of the Universe behind you then you can just turn around and have the safety of Earth at your back, at least.

But go deeper into space and that feeling of safety is gone forever. The same universal nothingness and everything-ness is in all directions. Space psychiatrists of the future may recommend we install permanent curtains to deal with this. Only those forced to work outside need experience the terror of the void.

At least you can see past the end of your nose in space. In the deep ocean it’s truly pitch black. Until the squids come.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by plq on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @04:15AM (#23475019)
Actually, you can "fall home" in the ocean. I have no idea what procedures exist in missions that go to extreme depths like these, but if you are a recreational diver (who is not allowed to go below 30m) and you have an emergency down there, the last resort is to get rid of all your additional weights* as fast as possible so that you get pushed to the surface with zero effort.

Of course, you need to deal with fast changes in pressure during the short journey towards the surface (protect your eardrums, lungs etc) and you may get decompression sickness depending on the dive time and avg depth at the moment of emergency, but hey, at least you're alive to deal with all those problems!

*: Generally, a scuba diver takes additional weights to counter the positive buoyancy effect of wetsuits, fat etc. These are mounted on belts or similar accessories that are designed to be very easy to get rid of in case of emergency.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by serkandurusoy on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @04:48AM (#23475155)
> so that you get pushed to the surface with zero effort

This is not always true.

Your buoyancy decreases as you go deeper (and have more water above you, causing more downward pressure).

At a depth of 30 meters (100 feet), the pressure is 4 atmospheres, 4 times that of sea level.

Furthermore, not everyone is positively buoyant. The less fat one has, especially if not wearing diving suit, the more likely staying afloat/level to become harder.

As the depth increases, lungs and all bodily cavities shrink, further adding to one's density.

So, at 30 meters, it is actually quite a struggle to swim back up, even more so if you've lost your fins.

As for weights, I used to work out and exercise daily. During that time, I also dived few times a week spanning various sea conditions throughout the year and never have once taken weights as I was already negative.

Fast forward 2 years to today, I put on 15kg (33 lbs) and I need 10kg weight to enjoy my dive. But on the upside, I'd probably skyrocket to the surface if needed, lol :D

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by plq on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @05:27AM (#23475329)
> Your buoyancy decreases as you go deeper (and have more water above you, causing more downward pressure).

This statement is wrong on many levels. I'll try to correct just one part:

Your buoyancy must NOT decrease as you go deeper. That's one of the fundamental rules you need to follow if you want to dive more than once :) If you don't watch your depth and take necessary steps to maintain neutral buoyancy, you'd sink like a stone (or rise like a balloon). Nobody wants that.

What you mean is: you need more air in you buoyancy compensator (BC) to maintain neutral buoyancy (= keep your volume constant) as you go deeper.

If you don't take weights, you need to inflate your bc to lift you. In an emergency, you generally don't have time to swim up anyway.

All that said, I was just trying to point out that it was possible to "fall home" from underwater, assuming you are within the limits of your equipment.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @11:41AM (#23478347)
The difference is critical.

A buoyancy compensator, filled with a fixed quantity (not volume) of air, does decrease in volume as you descend and the pressure increases. You'd sink faster and faster if you did not add air as required. Therefore, you must actively manage a BCD!

On the way up, the opposite happens. The quantity of air in your buoyancy compensator has an increasing volume of air as you rise and the pressure decreases, providing you with increasing buoyancy. Uncontrolled, this would rocket you towards the surface. Therefore, you must actively manage a BCD!

Lungs do not change in volume in SCUBA as they do when free (breath hold) diving, because your regulator is allowing you to constantly breathe air which is at the same pressure as the water around you.

When free diving, you carry weights to be neutrally buoyant at around 30 feet. Above the neutral buoyancy depth, you float towards the surface, and must swim down to descend. Below the neutral buoyancy depth, you become negatively buoyant, sink increasingly quickly, and must swim up to ascend. This is also important to be aware of; you don't want to strap weights to yourself that you can't drop: You may think you're capable of swimming up against your negative buoyancy, but if you only test at 10 feet under you may not be capable when you get deeper!

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by serkandurusoy on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @11:56AM (#23478539)
> What you mean is: you need more air in you buoyancy compensator (BC) to maintain neutral buoyancy (= keep your volume constant) as you go deeper.

I did indeed neglect to explain what needs to happen. Thank you for clarifying. Let's all hope to enjoy many more dives :)

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by garaetjjte on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @05:06AM (#23475234)
>(and have more water above you, causing more downward pressure).

But also higher pressure pushing you upwards too! Buoyant force is equal to weight of displaced fluid, and so is independent of depth. (edit: given same fluid and temperature) (edit2: and well, buoyant force will be slightly stronger because fluid will be more compressed at the bottom)

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by jacquesm on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @06:31AM (#23475609)
No, higher pressure does not push you upwards. That's all about buoyancy and a liter of water weighs just as much at the bottom of the ocean as it does at the surface. That higher pressure works on all sides of your body which means it cancels out.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by contravariant on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @09:57AM (#23477044)
I reckon that water under high pressure does have a somewhat higher density. However water is pretty much the textbook example of an incompressible fluid so the difference will probably be rather small.

Edit: Found a direct quote on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressib...: >The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume.[40]

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by jacquesm on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @07:14PM (#23483275)
Water is tremendously stable, cheap and commonly available, that's exactly why it - and nowadays oil - was used since time immemorial as a working fluid to transfer force from one place to another. In essence the limiting factor is the burst strength of the tubing.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by garaetjjte on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @10:30AM (#23477373)
Yes, I just wanted to correct OP statement that "and have more water above you, causing more downward pressure" by pointing that increasing pressure exerts force on bottom side, so in effect it cancels out increasing pressure pushing at top, and so buoyant force is constant. (with added trivia about minuscule changes due to fluid compressibility)
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by serkandurusoy on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:05PM (#23478656)
Hmm, I think have gotten my physics backwards with regards to the correlation of more pressure to more downward force.

Thank you for correcting this.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by Retric on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:05PM (#23478665)
Water density increases with depth. Though only 4.96% at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Near the surface it’s almost never an issue, but for ultra deep dives it’s important.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by power78 on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @06:44AM (#23475684)
> Furthermore, not everyone is positively buoyant. The less fat one has, especially if not wearing diving suit, the more likely staying afloat/level to become harder.

I'm not sure if it is just me, but I could not understand this at all. Do you mind rephrasing it? Which type of person has a harder time stating afloat?

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by serkandurusoy on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:02PM (#23478619)
Fat can naturally float on water due to its density being less than that of water.

The more fat one has, the less overall average density becomes, making it harder to sink. I have a close friend who is very overwheight and she can practically sit upright floating. I must admit I'd usually envy her when I struggled staying afloat while she enjoye a cool refreshment like it were her couch :)

So in short, less fat, more muscle mass, more bone mass harder to stay afloat.

Also the diving suite (which is made from a foam-like material) and some of the hallow diving gear make it harder to sink, hence the need for weights.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by IncRnd on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @08:42AM (#23476411)
Fat has a specific gravity < 1.0, floating in water.

Bone + Muscle have specific gravities > 1.0.

Generally, the more fat on a person, the greater that person's buoyancy.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by whiddershins on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @06:47AM (#23475706)
Higher body fat makes you float more easily. I think.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by mrkstu on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @08:44AM (#23476430)
Muscle is denser than fat per volume.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by cal5k on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @09:20AM (#23476672)
At the depths we're talking about that would not be possible: "Decompression from these depths takes approximately one day per 100 feet of seawater plus a day. A dive to 650 feet would take approximately eight days of decompression."

This is why saturation divers spend significant amounts of time in a pressure vessel after a period of diving to decompress.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by plq on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @11:25AM (#23478105)
The article is very light on technicalities but as far as I can tell, this expedition is WAY outside the sat territory. Sat divers do perform "seawalk"s during their missions, so they do need to perform the necessary steps to adjust to pressure changes.

This can't be the case here, they were inside their submarines the whole time.

ps: 100 feet = ~30m, 650 feet=~200m

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by cal5k on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:03PM (#23490257)
Good point. You could maintain a more reasonable pressure inside a submarine.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by saberdancer on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @03:30AM (#23474815)
To me, the deep ocean with the pressures involved is much more deadly than the vacuum of space. Sure, you'd die in both situations but the ocean would just crush your in a second while space is not as violent but still quite deadly.

Space is also open and visibility is great while in the depths there is no light and you can see only a few meters in any directions. Space also does not have "monsters" in it :).

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by russdill on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:49PM (#23479952)
All you need to do in space to avoid dying in vacuum if your pressure vessel fails is wear a pressure suit. If your pressure vessel fails in the deep ocean the only upside is you'll probably never even be aware of it happening.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by saberdancer on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @03:25PM (#23481012)
Plus you need cooling or heating, you need to be able to breath, you are exposed to a lot more radiation than is healthy for you. All of those are deadly, but not as sudden as being crushed to death in an instant like you would at the bottom of the ocean.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by pas on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @05:02AM (#23475220)
Space has micrometeorites \o/
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by IncRnd on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @08:44AM (#23476428)
Space has micrometeoroids, and that might even be more monsterish!
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by osobo on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @04:09AM (#23474990)
Space is empty. The deep ocean has things. Old, blind things with little lights and teeth and tentacles.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by tutfbhuf on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @02:53AM (#23474638)
> Something about journeying to the deep ocean seems so much more terrifying than space.

> At least you can see past the end of your nose in space. In the deep ocean it’s truly pitch black.

Yup, I think it's the darkness and short distance visibility that makes for thalassophobia in most cases, at least it is for me. It scares me when I cannot see the ground, even when I know that it's only a few meters deep. However, I can stand on the top of a building and look down without any fear. BTW, I recommend r/thalassophobia.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by barking on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @03:15AM (#23474747)
I have no fear of dying in space, none! In contrast, the thought of drowning terrifies me as does that of falling from a great height.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by chrisweekly on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @06:34AM (#23475629)
Related tangent: philosopher / author Milan Kundera once wrote,

> "Vertigo is something other than the fear of falling; it is the desire to fall -- against which, terrified, we defend ourselves."

That's from memory (over 20 years ago) but I think I got it right.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by nix23 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:41PM (#23490641)
True, when you stand at a cliff and look down, you feel the urge to step forward, my theory as a climber is:

Your eyes tell you it's flat so you can step forward...but your sense of balance tell's you something different..brain is confused, you never have that feeling when your IN the wall.

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by krisoft on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @07:57AM (#23476079)
We had astronauts who had to interrupt an EVA because they had a water leak in their suit and it was pooling in their helmet. That thought absolutely terrifies me. You have plenty of air, it's just that there is a silly blob of few centiliters of water around your nose, and you can't wave it away because your helmet is in the way.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by pcardoso on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @05:13AM (#23475258)
The book The Deep Range by Arthur C. Clarke's deals with some of this. An astronaut that fears space is forced to move to a marine force.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by greggman3 on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @04:58AM (#23475203)
I get freaked out in underwater segments in 3D video games. IIRC Quake had some underwater levels and they totally freaked me out. Same with Metroid Prime even though they were small. The latest as Subnautica VR. I couldn't even play period. Just too terrifying for some reason. I jumped in the water, swam down a little and then was like "Nope!".

I've thought maybe it's that things can come from below where as generally that doesn't happen on the ground. It could also be the reverb-y sounds. I have no idea. I love the ocean and swimming so ...

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by Avicebron on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:18PM (#23479584)
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by lqet on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @09:41AM (#23476889)
> Something about journeying to the deep ocean seems so much more terrifying than space.

What terrifies me most is the stuff that lives down there [0].

[0] https://www.livescience.com/16231-creepy-deep-sea-creatures-...

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by markdown on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @04:32AM (#23475088)
> If something goes wrong in space you drift into oblivion. If you are tethered in space and the safety rope breaks its game over.

No way man, didn't you watch Gravity [2013]? /s

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by gorgoiler on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @07:35AM (#23475939)
Is it actually possible to de-orbit without over-heating?

If you come in at some super shallow angle you'd think you could do it, but at some point one ends up going from an orbit to a trajectory, at which point unless your air resistance can throttle your air speed below some value, you'll always over-heat?

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by mrkstu on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @08:48AM (#23476460)
I suppose if you had some kind of aero-gel bubble that could progressively ablate as you came down you could make it work.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by jvm_ on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:09PM (#23478704)
Bleeding off 8km/second (5miles/second) all the way to zero movement - just by moving through the atmosphere... doing that without heating just seems impossible.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by cheerlessbog on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @10:53AM (#23477638)
If arbitrary thrust is allowed you can move as slowly as you like in any direction.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by jonathlee on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:28PM (#23478956)
Yes. Look up space diving. There have been old Popular Science (Popular Mechanics?) articles on it and speculation in the space community about a new sport if/when a space tether is possible.
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by elcomet on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:42PM (#23479135)
> No successful space dives (above 100 km) have been completed to date
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by thirtythree on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @09:15AM (#23476632)
Has anyone ever "floated" away in space?
Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by KineticLensman on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @11:46AM (#23478408)
Several astronauts intentionally 'floated away' using the Shuttle's Manned Maneuvering Unit [0]. I don't think anyone has done so accidentally.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Maneuvering_Unit

Re:First U.S. woman to walk in space dives to deepest point ... by russdill on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:51PM (#23479979)
You can see video of what it would look like though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bet1jgj3s68