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Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by humaniania on Sunday June 07, 2020 @08:55PM (#23452510)
The CDC revised their risk estimates towards the end of last month.

"The fifth scenario is the CDC's "current best estimate about viral transmission and disease severity in the United States." In that scenario, the agency described its estimate that 0.4% of people who feel sick with Covid-19 will die.

For people age 65 and older, the CDC puts that number at 1.3%. For people 49 and under, the agency estimated that 0.05% of symptomatic people will die."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/health/cdc-coronavirus-estima...

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by JamesBarney on Sunday June 07, 2020 @10:02PM (#23452884)
Those CDC numbers are really weird btw. 0.4% of symptomatic cases is like a 0.2-0.3% IFR.

0.3% of the New York City population has already died of corona-virus. So assuming everyone in New York was infected that gives us an IFR of .3%. But if a more realistic 20% of the population was infected then the IFR could be as high as 1.5%.

I tried going through all the most recent research and almost all of it came up with an IFR in the 0.5-1.2% range. And the few that had a lower rate were looking at anti-body tests in places with very low base rates.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by in_cahoots on Sunday June 07, 2020 @10:41PM (#23453090)
Maybe the 20% of the population was more susceptible? It seems that the outbreak was concentrated in long-term care facilities, healthcare workers (who received a larger viral load than average), and the poor (who tend to have more pre-existing conditions). If the 20% is not randomly distributed the math can still work out.
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by JamesBarney on Sunday June 07, 2020 @11:25PM (#23453310)
The math could work out, but if that was true then that means if NYC got 5 times as many infections the number of fatalities would barely change.

I would find that hard to believe and I also doubt they would have enough data to validate that type of hypothesis. We're still guessing at the number of people infected, not to mention how old are they, what pre-existing conditions did they have, how do those pre-existing condition affect Covid-19 mortality in different age groups, what viral load did they receive, etc..

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by in_cahoots on Monday June 08, 2020 @01:33AM (#23453876)
Fair points! You could probably make an estimate with a stratified approach but if 0.3% have already died there’s no wiggle room for additional deaths.
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by jakeogh on Sunday June 07, 2020 @11:35PM (#23453358)
Influenza and pneumonia deaths by influenza season and age United States, 2008–2015: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/influenza-and-pn...
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by JamesBarney on Monday June 08, 2020 @12:30AM (#23453571)
Sorry, I don't see the connection.
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by ashtonkem on Monday June 08, 2020 @01:37AM (#23453899)
An interesting question is this: which 20% got it? A representative sample, or a localized group with unusual risk characteristics, like retirement homes or prisons?
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by gridspy on Sunday June 07, 2020 @09:09PM (#23452598)
Even if you do not die, you might have a very unpleasant experience with lasting consequences.

Perhaps a better way to frame it would be - 2% (?) of patients have serious life-changing consequences. Those under 49 tend to survive them.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by GiorgioG on Sunday June 07, 2020 @10:22PM (#23452980)
The problem for me is we don't have any way at this time of knowing at an individual level what the consequences are likely to be. I might have no symptoms if I get sick but I may transmit it my son (type 1 diabetic) who might die. Or maybe he'd be fine and I might die, etc. There's just no way to gauge what one's reaction might be to getting the coronavirus.

A local, healthy 8 year old girl started having symptoms last week Thursday and died the following Tuesday.

I don't expect my family's lockdown to end before well into next year at the earliest. The odds are against dying or long term complications for younger people, but is going out to dinner, a bar, sporting or music event worth the risk? Not for me. Stay safe folks.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by blub on Monday June 08, 2020 @03:22AM (#23454351)
That's really unfortunate with that young girl.

So far it looks like these are the absolute exception, but it does sadly happen that young healthy people and kids too get seriously sick and sometimes even die.

The German pediatric association publishes some (incomplete) stats about the disease in children (https://dgpi.de/covid-19-survey-update-kw22/) and there were so far 159 hospitalizations, with 21 of those in intensive care. 140 kids were released, 1 died. ~9600 <19yos registered as sick with COVID.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by hef19898 on Monday June 08, 2020 @05:36AM (#23455074)
Key word: Incomplete. As was Drostens study about the virus concentration in children. The German Fox News wannabe BILD tried to kill him for it. Incomplete studies and data is the norm right now. I am happy to not have to make decissions about life and death based on this. Someone has, so. And erring on the side of caution isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by blub on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:06AM (#23455797)
The DGPI data is not a study, but rather they collect data from children's clinics and it is incomplete in the sense that not all clinics deliver information to them. If anything there could be more hospitalizations and deaths, but that seems rather unlikely.

In any case I agree that the topic COVID and children is particularly sensitive and still blurry right now.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by ashtonkem on Monday June 08, 2020 @01:39AM (#23453905)
There’s the risk of death and injury, which is an interesting discussion, and then there’s the fear. With cases beginning to rise rapidly in multiple states again, I expect the latter to have a more dominant effect on our behavior
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday June 07, 2020 @10:18PM (#23452956)
> serious life-changing consequences

This is a much more interesting data point.

Death tends to have very few ongoing life-altering consequences, and in and of itself has a very low R0.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by mrb on Monday June 08, 2020 @05:25AM (#23455014)
The CDC estimate (IFR 0.26%, S-IFR 0.4%) is heavily criticized because it ignores, thus predates, the 3 largest and most reliable serosurveys which all indicate an IFR of ~1% (S-IFR ~1.54%, assuming 35% of cases are asymptomatic):

1.0% in Brazil based on 25,025 samples https://twitter.com/GidMK/status/1267670267624476672

1.14% in Spain based on 60,897 samples https://twitter.com/zorinaq/status/1265405628853305345

0.92% in NYC and 0.84% in New York State based on 15,101 samples https://twitter.com/GidMK/status/1267669314657611777

Also YYG, the guy who runs https://covid19-projections.com/ (a model that has consistently produced the most accurate forecasts) reported his model found that a ~1% IFR gave the best fit: https://mobile.twitter.com/youyanggu/status/1256051255253757...

Note: S-IFR is the fatality of symptomatic cases only. IFR is the fatality of all cases (asymptomatic and symptomatic)

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by cm2187 on Monday June 08, 2020 @05:48AM (#23455133)
The wider NY state has an IFR of 0.5%. The IFR should also be very sensitive to the demographics of the infection. Both the UK and NY State had a policy of sending recovering (but potentially contagious) older covid patients back to nursing homes and it would have exacerbated the mortality rate vs regions that did a better job at protecting the elderly.

I am also starting to hear some noise that there might be cross immunity between this virus and previous coronavirus. In a recent video Prof Raoult was suggesting it might explain the low infection rate of people under 20 [1]. I am not qualified to tell whether the theory has any leg but it may be that we underestimate the spread of the virus when looking at a specific antibody.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=734&v=zUbiYhknaK... (in french)

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by mrb on Monday June 08, 2020 @06:45AM (#23455414)
NY State does not have an IFR of 0.5%. You are probably quoting Cuomo's press briefing https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/04/23/governo... which claims 0.5% based on this math:

15740 deaths ÷ 2700000 infected = 0.58% (they round to 0.5%)

However they note that the official state death count (15740 deaths) «only indicates deaths that happened in a hospital or a nursing home, and does not include coronavirus-related deaths that occurred in a home, which means the official death count is likely higher than that official number»

The true number of deaths, including home deaths, is 20759 as of the date of Cuomo's press briefing, April 24 (source: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nytimes/covid-19-data/mast...)

Furthermore, all the figures quoted by Cuomo were provisional, mid-study. The serosurvey actually completed on April 28 and was published here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.25.20113050v... The final figures as of this date were:

22777 deaths ÷ (19450000 state population × 14.0% infected) = IFR of 0.84%

It is important to take deaths as of April 28 in order to minimize right censoring.

«Both the UK and NY State had a policy of sending recovering patients to nursing home»

Spain and Brazil did not do this and still exhibit an IFR of 1% add per the serosurveys I referenced.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by acqq on Monday June 08, 2020 @05:57AM (#23455185)
> Both the UK and NY State had a policy of sending recovering (but potentially contagious) older covid patients back to nursing homes and it would have exacerbated the mortality rate vs regions that did a better job at protecting the elderly.

Isn't the death rate the percentage of population that dies when all are infected? Then nothing can be "exacerbated" by that alone? It then just reflects the death rate which results from the people being infected, no matter the speed?

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by cm2187 on Monday June 08, 2020 @06:12AM (#23455248)
The rate quoted by the parent, I believe, is the number of deaths divided by the number of people estimated to be infected, by prorating an antibody test sampling to the wider population. So that doesn’t assume everyone got exposed to the virus, and assumes the sampling is a representative sample (but in NY it was sampled in grocery stores, which tells you nothing about infection rate in nursing homes that made up 40% of the deaths).
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by acqq on Monday June 08, 2020 @06:39AM (#23455377)
> the number of deaths divided by the number of people estimated to be infected, by prorating an antibody test sampling to the wider population. So that doesn’t assume everyone got exposed to the virus

To get the rate one can indeed calculate it with smaller representative sample, but that just doesn't imply that the vulnerable people would somehow never become infected if the epidemic continues, so the deaths of the old can't be avoided then. That the old die much more is a fact, and nothing that by itself "exacerbates" the rate.

Edit: I haven't seen any argument that estimated more than 20% of NY population that were supposedly infected were somehow specially skewed sample to hit only old people, and I'd argue that if the sample is that big it's quite improbable. If the argument is that the virus got faster in the nursing homes, one can also argue that all the old people outside of nursing homes skewed in the another direction by managing to initially not get the infection, but that as epidemic progresses they would indeed eventually become infected and suffer.

Edit2: "the virus is rather showing signs of going away" claim is very curious to me. I don't see it "going away" looking at all the statistics across the different parts of the world. I see only the slowdown of the spread, which corresponds to people generally changing their behavior to slow it down.

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by cm2187 on Monday June 08, 2020 @06:49AM (#23455438)
But that sample may not be representative of the demographics of the people who got infected. It is possible that a lot more people in care homes have been infected than the grocery store sample, because of the policy of sending covid patients there (and the fact that the staff must have physical contact with each of the patients every day and therefore it will spread within a care home may very quickly).

If it is the case, you don't expect the same death rate to scale up as the wider population continues to get infected (if it is still happening, the virus is rather showing signs of going away).

Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by mrb on Monday June 08, 2020 @06:52AM (#23455459)
Only 21% of Covid19 deaths in New York State occurred in nursing homes. Recent source (few days old): https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/state-data-and-...
Re:America is giving up on the pandemic? by acqq on Sunday June 07, 2020 @09:32PM (#23452722)
In the very article you link to the case of New York is mentioned by Bergstrom, specifically to critique that estimate, and point that New York disproves it.

I verified that claim:

We know that the antibody tests in NYC gave the estimate of "all infected" of 20% of all. But there were around 20K deaths, and NYC has 8.3M population. Also even if we expect that the spread will stop once the 70% of population is infected the result is: 100e3 * 0.7 / 8e6 = 0.87%

Still much more than 0.4%. That it's closer to 1% matches all the statistics of the countries of the world that did a lot of testing compared to the number of cases and deaths.

Back to the article:

Bergstrom in the article: "Given that these parameter sets underestimate fatality by a substantial margin compared to current scientific consensus, this is deeply problematic."

In the same article, even CDC disclaims that their numbers are predictions:

"The scenarios are intended to advance public health preparedness and planning. They are not predictions or estimates of the expected impact of COVID-19" the CDC says.

So it seems you intentionally misinterpret CDC, given that it's all in the very article you linked.