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Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by fenwick67 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:55PM (#23405641)
This is great sci-fi fodder, imagine if you could land a tiny craft on that thing and then use the hydrogen as fuel without having to haul all that fuel into deep space (very unlikely to be practical but the idea is exciting).
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by motoboi on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#23407384)
Imagine you just land a tiny craft on that thing and let the thing take you to interestelar space without you having to burn no more fuel.

Unfortunately, if you can't catch it, you don't need it for that, as you'll be traveling faster that it to be able to intercept it and would just burn fuel trying to break enough to match its speed.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:03PM (#23407988)
Rule 1 of orbital mechanics: if you're about to dock with something, you're already on the same trajectory as that thing.

Might make a good radiation shield, though.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by phreeza on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:46PM (#23409224)
Except this is not an orbit around any body. If you can do what the parent proposes, you can add the chemical energy of fusing the hydrogen to your kinetic energy and defeat the rocket equation
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:19PM (#23409549)
That's what my comment's GP proposed. I understand my comment's parent to be asking about just attaching yourself to an asteroid.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by manquer on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:04PM (#23411139)
You could always impact/land violently with it without having to match its trajectory. If your instruments are designed to survive the impact , it could work.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Thursday June 04, 2020 @12:15PM (#23418486)
You can, but you only save as much velocity as the difference during the impact. Can't think of the case where that is, at the same time, both a useful saving and not fast enough to melt your equipment from a high-velocity impact.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by manquer on Thursday June 04, 2020 @03:20PM (#23420655)
Well is it not cheaper(by payload mass) to have higher protection to your equipment than more fuel ? Any benefit is useful , and this could be substantial depending on the strength of materials used
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Thursday June 04, 2020 @04:00PM (#23421074)
I imagine that, mass for mass, it isn't (of the extra fuel you carry, each bit you expend means the rest has that much less mass to push). Also, I can't think of means of protection that would withstand a high velocity collision with space gravel, that wouldn't be at the same time prohibitively heavy.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by ragebol on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:25PM (#23408212)
I'm not into orbital mechanics at all, just an interested layman, but how does a space tug work in relation to your 'Rule 1 of orbital mechanics'?. What is the point of a space tug then?
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by walrus01 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:17PM (#23408885)
One of the purposes of a proposed 'space tug' is to use slow low thrust but high delta-v, high efficiency engines to do things such as:

Raise the orbit of satellites in LEO which are affected by atmospheric drag. Or re-boost things like the international space station, proposed future Chinese space station, etc.

Extend the lifetime of geostationary satellites which are still electrically functional, but out of station keeping propellant. One such thing docked for the very first time with a satellite earlier this year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Extension_Vehicle

On unmanned missions, slowly move cargo from low earth orbit to destinations at the Moon or Mars. If you can use ion and hall effect type thrusters for your missions to move cargo around, you can establish a logistics supply chain for essential supplies consisting of unmanned craft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse

An interesting example of using ion engines to maintain low earth orbit, through long continual thrust was this mission:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Field_and_Steady-State...

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:19PM (#23409556)
I try to follow interesting space missions, but I've never heard about either of the two you linked to here. Thank you!
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:07PM (#23409444)
Others have provided excellent answers explaining both regular tugs and gravity tractors. So let me add a justification of my "1st rule".

It boils down to the fact that in space you can, with a very good degree of approximation, determine the trajectory of an object not under thrust, knowing only these two things: it's position at a given time, and it's velocity at that same time. These two vectors give you a single trajectory through space.

It follows from two physical laws that you may remember from high school:

- Newton's second law, or F=ma

- Newton's law of universal gravitation, or F=GMm/r^2

If you put them against each other, you get ma=GMm/r^2, or consequently a=GM/r^2. The acceleration (and thus, future position and velocity) of an inert object in space is independent of its mass. So all you need to tell where it will go is to know where it is, and what is it's current speed and direction of movement. And, of course, what other bodies influence it with their gravity.

Of course, in practice, there are other considerations in which the mass may become relevant. For instance, solar radiation acts on the surface, impacting force that's scaled by object's mass. The same is true for collisions with various stray atoms, especially prevalent near planets with atmospheres.

But discounting above factors (and, again, you can go pretty far just ignoring them), if you have two objects very close to each other and not moving relative to each other, they'll just go together along the same path for a long, long time.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by hjb on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:35PM (#23408347)
The space tug is there to change the trajectory of the other thing:

1. Tug gets in same position and velocity as its target, and docks.

2. Tug performs some kinda of burn to put both it and its target on the new trajectory.

3. Tug undocks and performs a burn to head off to where ever else it's needed.

If I understand correctly, it's really just a way to avoid putting engines and fuel tanks on things that don't need to change trajectory much.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by marcusverus on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:49PM (#23408523)
The space tug and its load / target are on the same trajectory at the time of rendezvous. Once they're synced up, they're drawn toward each other, with the tiny gravity of each affecting the trajectory of the other. But while the load is passively traveling through space, the tug can reposition itself. This way, the tug determines the ultimate trajectory of the load while also having some control of its own trajectory, which it uses to continually bend the load's trajectory.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by yencabulator on Friday June 05, 2020 @09:59PM (#23436130)
If you match its speed, sure you'd be already independently traveling to interstellar space at the same speed as it was.

But landing on it and using the free large fuel tank of hydrogen it has now became you can 1) accelerate more 2) decelerate at your destination 3) steer (at least a bit).

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by ajuc on Thursday June 04, 2020 @02:05AM (#23413115)
If you match it's speed you already burned all the fuel you'd have to burn to get where it's going.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by andrewflnr on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:32PM (#23411339)
Right, you want to wait until the next one is inbound and catch it while it's still coming towards you. You just have to design the probe to survive a "landing" at several kilometers per second. I'm sure we can figure something out.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by BurningFrog on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:10PM (#23408058)
You can imagine intercepting a thing like this (Oumu has left the building), and hooking elastic rope to it to get dragged along.

Seems like a real hard mechanical problem, but not fundamentally impossible.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by moron4hire on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:13PM (#23408839)
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by fenwick67 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:16PM (#23408871)
Pfft, you can just lasso it
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by Symmetry on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:52PM (#23407197)
Yeah, though there's lots of water in the outer solar system you can get your propellant from. The term to google is In Situ Resource Utalization (ISRU).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_situ_resource_utilization

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:27PM (#23408230)
But those are mostly just orbiting the sun.

If you ever wanted to send a probe to Proxima Centauri, and stop when it got there, accelerating the fuel you'd want to have available to decelerate up to solar escape velocity would be a tremendous energy expenditure, even if you can mine it in the asteroid belt.

If, instead, you got lucky and jumped your probe (fuel tanks dry) on an interstellar wanderer that happened to be going approximately in the direction you wanted, you could have hundreds of tons of rocket fuel moving at interstellar velocities.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by detritus on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:16PM (#23408868)
True, but those interstellar velocities are mercilessly pitiful in respect to much of use there.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by koheripbal on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:42PM (#23407082)
I think the theories of it being an artificial alien probe were definitely more sci-fi fodder.

I'd always imagined that an alien intelligence might have seeded every solar system in the galaxy with a probe to monitor for evolving intelligence - but after Oumuamua, I realized it would be far more efficient and reliable to have swarms of them coasting through systems periodically to check on them. ...or maybe both.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by diroussel on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:17PM (#23405932)
Then the problem becomes getting oxygen. As a hydrogen won't burn in a vacuum.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by sawjet on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:41PM (#23406265)
I could still be useful as a propellant for say, a nuclear thermal engine.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by ISL on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:26PM (#23406043)
Unless you can fuse it into helium.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by throwaway2048 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:23PM (#23406819)
If you have the tech to fuse hydrogen the amount of fuel you would need for a nearly unlimited amount of energy is tiny, you would save very little by harvesting it off a comet/asteroid.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by jandrese on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:44PM (#23407110)
Depends on how much energy you need. If you are talking about turning it into an interstellar spacecraft by hooking up some kind of fusion powered thruster (probably using H2 as the reaction mass) to the back you may need all of its mass.

This is of course well beyond our current capabilities, but it's not something that's impossible to consider in the medium-distant future. Plus, even if you expend a colossal amount of energy accelerating you're still talking about thousands of years for the journey where you'll need to keep those reactors running for the entire trip (there is no useful solar collection in deep space) having a literal mountain of fuel to start with is important.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by scotty79 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:03PM (#23407329)
Unless you just want to colonize this hydrogen iceberg, and live on it for next thousand years, recycling all other elements indefinitely as you cruise through the galaxy.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by Sharlin on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:48PM (#23407159)
You still need propellant mass. Energy in itself doesn't get you anywhere. But in practice you'd probably be better off electrolyzing water ice which is ubiquitous in the outer Solar System.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by rfreytag on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:05PM (#23407358)
Insulating the fusion reactor from the solid hydrogen in Oumuamua could prove difficult.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by masklinn on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:29PM (#23407608)
Put Oumuamua at the front? It's not like drag is a concern.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by lmilcin on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:38PM (#23410421)
Yeah, imagine you have whole lot of hydrogen and no oxygen to get it to burn. You are going to freeze to death while moving nowhere.

About the only good thing it could be used for is reaction mass. But you can use almost anything as reaction mass as long as you have a source of energy, you can exhaust any particles to propel yourself forward, doesn't have to be hydrogen.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by marcosdumay on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:42PM (#23410979)
If it's only hydrogen, you can still fuse it.

Well, not today, but we can't reach it today either.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by btilly on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:17PM (#23406738)
Matching speeds with it for this operation would take much better rockets than we have available.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by valuearb on Thursday June 04, 2020 @01:14AM (#23412727)
A Starship sized vehicle using the well tested NERVA engine would be able to add around 20 km/sec to the velocity it already has in earth orbit. So pretty close and gravity assists would increase that.

Once you dock with Oumuamu, you can run it’s material through at an 890 ISP and gradually accelerate to much higher speeds.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by btilly on Thursday June 04, 2020 @01:47PM (#23419562)
You underestimate the problem.

First you have to add something like 40 km/sec to go from Earth orbit to escape into interstellar space, and then you have to add another 20 km/sec to match speeds with Oumuanu. That's 60 km/sec, which is 3 times the speed and takes 9 times the energy.

Pioneer and Voyager got to interstellar space with gravity assists. But those work best when you barely get to a planet's orbit, then it picks you up and you go close to 180 around it. (Thereby adding 2x its velocity to your own.) Once you start getting to the velocities needed for Oumuamu, you just shoot by the planet and don't get much of an assist. (Assuming, that is, that there is an alignment between the planets and a random interstellar visitor. Which is extremely unlikely.)

I stand by my statement. We do not have good enough rockets for this maneuver.

Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by rbanffy on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:15PM (#23410167)
It'd be fun to operate a nuclear-thermal rocket for decades, heating the ice and piping it through the reactor and out the nozzle.
Re:Oumuamua may be a hydrogen iceberg by aj7 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:49PM (#23407161)
Or just follow it.