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Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by Grustaf on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @06:40AM (#23321473)
I think it's mostly just that intelligence is not terribly important for success. Tenacity, street smart, charisma, connections, passion are all more important than IQ.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by mvdwoord on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:11AM (#23321666)
Taleb wrote extensively on this. IQ only statistically relevant at the bottom end of the scale (barrier of entry) but meaningless for "success" otherwise.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by xtiansimon on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @06:55AM (#23321549)
Don’t forget good looks and a rich uncle to bail you out of a jam.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by fao_ on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:14AM (#23321686)
Exactly. People on here seem to forget that almost every single rich person that can be named had hereditary money.

Jeff Bezos now has more money than can be made if an American family earned 63k for 2 million years. He also had parents that gave him a so-called "three hundred thousand dollar investment" (more money than most people see in a lifetime even while working hard for their family, dedicating most of their life to work and barely managing to enjoy life), while ignoring or dodging every single tax he can get away with.

It's weird how most people are fine with that, because they seem to see themselves as temporarily embarrassed billionaires, or because they aren't able to understand the sheer amount of money.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by adventured on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:34AM (#23321793)
> He also had parents that gave him a so-called "three hundred thousand dollar investment" (more money than most people see in a lifetime even while working hard for their family, dedicating most of their life to work and barely managing to enjoy life)

Jeff Bezos also had a teen mother, a biological father that abandoned him, and a Cuban immigrant father that came to the US alone at 16 with nothing and no ability to speak English.

After passing through a refugee camp, just six years later Mike Bezos was raising Jeff as his own and had successfully gone to college.

If - having survived all of that well enough to build a decent life for himself - Mike could afford to invest into his son's business, then it's a remarkable accomplishment that should be cheered, rather than attacked.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by johnmarinelli on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:18AM (#23322082)
I don't know much about Jeff Bezos so I try to reserve my judgement about him. But I am confused - how does one come from a poor family and then receive a $300k loan from said family?
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by danieltillett on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:53AM (#23322406)
The poor family through hard work and saving became a moderately wealthy family over time.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by johnmarinelli on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @09:59AM (#23323324)
Sure, I didn't mean to sound like I am stomping on the Dream. What I meant was, how specifically did this family that came from poverty accumulate $300k?

Quick research says that Mike Bezos worked as an engineer for Exxon after graduating college, and saving that money wisely can add up to $300k.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by xtiansimon on Tuesday June 02, 2020 @07:39PM (#23397849)
That does not change the calculus in my mind, because the situation goes beyond just money. How did the Sr. Bezos land such a well paying job with Exxon? An engineer position puts him in a privileged class. We have to look back further generations to see how his family was in such a position to raise a successful engineer?

Let alone that Sr. should have the knowledge and support he required to manage his money so well. I look at the Jr. Bezos having a privilege to have a father who he could turn to for advise, or who may have guided his development. Not saying he did, cuz I don't know the family, but it sounds like it was a real possibility. Who saves all that money, only to entrust it to his estranged son who he don't know or trust--as if he haven't had a hand in imparting the necessary temperament, sensibility, and wisdom for his son to be successful in some way in the economy? LOL.

How many people today are fortunate to have grown up in this time, in this is a period of unprecedented economic growth and social change, who have squandered their earnings, because they didn't have the support of knowledgeable and trustworthy parents or family?

Sounds to me like a chain of great decisions, luck or both.

I can give a counter example. I moved to an affluent town on the North Shore of Long Island, NY. I met a woman in my neighborhood who described to me her career at the local hospital, as a nurse, for over 20 years. She's African American, and landed this job in the late 70s early 80s by my calculation. She benefited by the social changes at the time that accepted African Americans as nurses in a largely white community. I also met her son, and he struggles with under-employment in his career. I had the impression she didn't understand why he was in that situation. She was proud of her success. I imagine it was difficult for her to reconcile her career in nursing, and her son's struggles. She had success, why not him? Unlucky, more like it.

Right now--that hospital is part of one of those large health care corporate systems. If she had this job today, its very possible she would not have seen her salary increase year after year, nor enjoyed a pension, nor stayed with the same organization for so long just being a nurse. There will always be new nurse graduates with more energy with just enough knowledge who are more manageable by corporate. That's the reality of hospitals and healthcare today, despite growth in this field.

Fortune goes to the right person who is in the right place at the right time. And if you frack up and fall out, someone else is ready to take your place, hey. Who in a great position can say they did it entirely alone? Meag Lottery winners. haha.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by Grustaf on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:49AM (#23321889)
Fine with what, that his parents helped him start a business or that he's so enormously wealthy?

I hope people don't mind the former, but the latter is a bit problematic. When individuals can control that much wealth, democracy breaks down, they can control politics. It wouldn't hurt capitalist incentives at all if the richest of the rich were limited to earning say $100 m.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by uryga on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:03AM (#23321978)
> I hope people don't mind [that his parents helped him start a business]

parents != parents

maybe i'm stating the obvious, but "if you want to get rich, come up with a good idea and work hard" is way easier when your parents can invest 300K in your startup and you have that safety net to fall back on. as in, that's a substantial factor into somebody's "self-madeness" that's often overlooked

(i know that's not what you said, but imo it's a common sentiment re: creating a successful business)

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by globular-toast on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:24AM (#23321735)
These two things are more important than most people are prepared to admit. Very few people ever do the "rags to riches" thing. The few that do are probably good looking. Some people are just born with the ability to be far more successful than others.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by tafox on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:31AM (#23321776)
I agree, but luckily everyone is born with the ability to define what success means to them.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by danaris on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:23AM (#23322125)
And I'm sure that's a great comfort to the vast number of people who are born with every bit as much potential for greatness as <insert personal favourite genius, celebrity, or billionaire here>, but never have the opportunity to realize it due to crushing poverty.

They may never be able to achieve even modest financial security and live in constant dread that they'll lose one of their 2-3 jobs and be on the street, but hey, they can define success as meaning a family that loves them, so that makes absolutely everything OK! /s

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by stevens32 on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @12:05PM (#23325314)
No idea why this would be downvoted, this is absolutely true - there is not just one version of what a successful life looks like. Deciding how you define success is a principle part of forming yourself as a person.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by globular-toast on Thursday May 28, 2020 @04:12AM (#23334790)
While this sounds great, it's a bit like when people say you can "choose what to believe". You cannot, in fact, choose what to believe. You either believe something or you don't. Similarly, with feeling successful, you either do feel that or you don't. It's not really under your control.

But what you can do is realise that things aren't always under your control so not to worry about them. Instead just concentrate on things you do have and things you can do. You have the power to be useful to society so do that. You have the power to do good things so do it. How you feel doesn't really matter.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by mlvljr on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:08AM (#23321650)
How dare you, sir, attack the *n dream!
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by CM30 on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:11AM (#23322041)
In a sense, it's like skill in any domain. Being good at something isn't strongly correlated that strongly with being successful at it, at least if success is taken to mean fame and fortune.

In that sense, the most successful CEO isn't necessarily the smartest individual/CEO in the same way the most successful artist isn't necessarily the best one on a technical level.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by TuringNYC on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:08AM (#23321638)
Perhaps also there are more definitions of success? Some people find success in moderate income but good family happiness. Others find success in taking care of their community.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by gizmo on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:26AM (#23321752)
Intelligence is hugely important for any kind of outlier success. It's no coincidence that Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and Jim Simons are undeniably brilliant.

The claim that charisma, street smarts, or connections are more important than intelligence is absurd. There are so many fields in which those things just don't matter. If you're not charismatic don't pursue a career in a field that requires charisma. Simple.

It's easy to think that intelligence isn't a strong predictor for success because there are many intelligent people who don't accomplish much. But there are many more charismatic and well-connected people who don't accomplish much! But we don't culturally expect charismatic people to automatically become successful, like we do for smart kids. That's where the real difference is.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by danaris on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:26AM (#23322152)
> If you're not charismatic don't pursue a career in a field that requires charisma. Simple.

I'm sorry, what field would that be?

I have yet to see a field where extraversion, persuasiveness, and regularly going out and having beers with the boss is less likely to get you promotion than being utterly brilliant, doing an amazing job at what you do, and maintaining a healthy work-life balance.

At least in America, charisma has a massively outsized influence on your success in anything but the very most menial of fields.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by gizmo on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @09:43AM (#23323047)
Those fields where weirdos make it to the top.
Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by Grustaf on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @07:54AM (#23321916)
Sure they are smart, but you'll find smarter people at any theoretical physics department, if we're talking IQ. Also, I don't think we are talking about rich as in global top 100, what I at least meant more mundane financial success, like earning $1 m a year.

At that level, you definitely don't need to be a genius, I'd say if anything a genius is much less likely to make a million a year.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by gizmo on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:22AM (#23322119)
People who don't try to become rich probably won't. That much is clear. When people pursue theoretical physics they knowingly choose a career that cuts off almost all paths to wealth. The question "so, why aren't you rich?" doesn't apply to people who aren't even trying.

For success within theoretical physics you see, again, exactly how important raw intelligence is. Charisma and people skills are nice, but top researchers are disproportionately brilliant. This isn't nearly as true in those scientific fields where research results are unverifiable. We've seen this in the recent months with the embarrassing quality of epidemiological modeling.

Earning $1m a year doesn't require exceptionalism of any kind, but there is a huge gap between $1m a year and the global top 100. And intelligence becomes more dominant and other traits start to matter less as the stakes increase.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by TeaDrunk on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @08:49AM (#23322361)
"For success within theoretical physics you see, again, exactly how important raw intelligence is. Charisma and people skills are nice, but top researchers are disproportionately brilliant. This isn't nearly as true in those scientific fields where research results are unverifiable. We've seen this in the recent months with the embarrassing quality of epidemiological modeling."

I actually believed physics has repeated run into the problem where large swaths of research is in fact unverifiable and exists purely on a theoretical basis until technology has caught up with the theory. Wasn't there a large discussion within the past 12 months or so about the many flaws of the field of physics, including the repeating of the same mistakes due to not wanting to stray too far from the existing literature? Doesn't this field also have large swaths of theories with plenty of mathematics behind both that are also mutually exclusive?

If I would think about a field with a long history of verified research, physics would most certainly not be up there. I'd say chemistry has physics beat there for example.

Additionally, epidemiological modeling has to deal with real data from sources whose trustworthiness are largely only somewhat known and somehow project this into the future. This is a garbage in, garbage out situation and I don't know if this should reflect on the field overall. It'd be like judging ML as a field based off of a problem case in which all training data has untrustworthy labels.

Re:A lot of “idiotic” things have reasonable explanations (2... by Grustaf on Wednesday May 27, 2020 @09:07AM (#23322553)
That’s my point. I am talking about wealthy people, not fantastically ultra rich.