Lebron has definitely abused his teammates during games on live TV, those clips are a YouTube search away. He’s also been responsible for having multiple coaches fired in his career, which isn’t exactly a servant-leader move.

> Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player

Lebron has played on teams that will probably go down as on-par with some of those bulls teams, it’s not like Pippen was on another planet compared to Wade or Anthony Davis. They’re fairly comparable players. The Cavs also wound up beating that Warriors team that matched the Bulls single season record, which was also considered one of the most talented teams ever.

Also, Jordan never belittled opposing fans in a press conference the way Lebron did in 2011 that he wound up having to clarify[0]. This was truly one of the most distasteful things I’ve ever seen a pro athlete say in a press conference, but that’s clearly my opinion.

I don’t necessarily believe that one is more or less moral than the other, but I’ve never been convinced of the Lebron “nice guy” story. He’s always come across as more narcissistic than Jordan in my opinion, Jordan would never have done “The Decision” the way Lebron did.

0: https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=66...

Dwane Wade is arguably more accomplished than Pippen, and LeBron also enjoyed the help of the likes of Chris Bosh and Ray Allen. This means that 2 of the 3 championships won by LeBron counted with 3 or 4 all stars and all of famers, either current or future.

While Wade and Bosh were seasoned leaders who respectively carried their teams single-handedly, Pippen never really reached that level. In fact, arguably he disappointed in that domain during Jordan's retirement.

And let's not forget, that unlike Jordan, LeBron shopped around rather intensely to hand-pick which players would pick up the slack.

If he was on a fantasy league that would be a kin of getting the cheat codes to the game and burying the competition.

lebro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYmJnM9eQs

kobe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwCh3qbpp4&pbjreload=10

Maybe I just miss kobe tho...

That counts as one championship, and a performance that's in line with the likes of Kawhi Leonard or Dirk Nowitzki.

Winning a single championship is barely evidence of being superior to Michael Jordan.

lebron has anthony davis, who hasn't quite proven he's at that level, but he's well on his way. just a little more tutelage under lebron and he may go down as being a better 2 than pippen. i'm excited to find out, so let's get this season back on track already!

with that said, zion and the lakers-b-team pelicans are the most exciting thing in basketball right now. brandon ingram made no sense as a #2 to lebron, but he's blossoming in new orleans next to zion, jrue holiday, and an also-revitalized lonzo ball.

Your sure statement is quite the qualification. Three versus six rings is an enormous difference in the NBA. That's a Larry Bird of a difference. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin and Dominique Wilkins won zero rings.

> but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score

Jordan's average was 5.3 assists per game (as a shooting guard, emphasis). That's good enough for #29 in the NBA this season and #28 last season. He was winning scoring titles while simultaneously out-competing some starting point guards when it came to assists.

Jordan ranks #45 all-time in assists, in 14 equivalent full seasons, ahead of a large list of point guards.

He averaged 8 assists and 32.5 points in the same season in 1989, during the height of his scoring capabilities. 8 assists per game is good enough for #5 this season (for those that don't know basketball well, that's typically elite point guard territory).

Lebron is #4 all-time in points per game. Your argument is pretty amusing to make given the numbers. He wants to see his teammates score vs himself? He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season.

Lebron's scoring average per game is 27.1, Jordan's was 30.1. Lebron has averaged 20 shots per game, Jordan averaged 23. Your premise is plainly false, the gulf between them on scoring behavior is simply not that great. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant won championships with Jordan and became renowned players - with Pippen being named to the all-time 50 list - precisely because Jordan had no problem with them scoring as well.

The scoring label was only partially true in the early years of Jordan's career where he was on a very mediocre Bulls team and attempted to do too much of the scoring out of necessity.

Lebron averaged 31.4 points and took 23 shots per game, with 6.6 assists, his third season in the league as a reference. Lebron clearly wasn't lacking in aggressive scoring behavior in his early years either.

He's won 3 and also been to 9 in a row, not a small feat.

A little confused by the rest of your arguments, over their careers MJ averaged 30.1 pts and 5.3 assists per game and Lebron so far has averaged 27.1 pts and 7.4 assists per game so doesn't that counter your argument since clearly Lebron has done much more passing?

> He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season.

How is that relevant? Lebron is number 8 all time in assists as a SF.

The numbers don't lie, its pretty clear he could lower his assist output and increase his scoring pretty easily.

Two of those 3 resulted from "the decision", which in practice meant he hand-picked a team whose starting lineup counted with 3 or 4 hall of famers arguably during their prime, with the notable exception of Ray Allen.

So to recap: Miami with Lebron = 4 Straight NBA Finals, Miami first year without Lebron = losing record and miss playoffs completel. They're basically a .500 dumpster team ever since.

lets not forget coaching. Phil Jackson has won 11 championships, more than any coach ever in the NBA. Who has Lebron had during his championships? Tyronn Lue and Erik Spoelstra, good coaches, but not one of the brightest minds to ever coach the game in Jackson.

Lastly, Lebron is still playing, he could pull off a 3-peat with this current Lakers team, we just don't know. I say all this as a die-hard Jordan fan who thinks people underestimate Lebron because he's "nice".

[1] - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legends...

In 1994 the Bulls were eliminated by New York in the second round.

Jordan returned in March/April after abandoning baseball in protest. The playoffs started in April 28th.

Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. That's one reason the comparison is so difficult between the two.

LeBron has been hand-picking his whole team for a decade now. If he was unable to find a decent coach, which is not subject to the same restrictions as stacking the team with all-star players, then that shortcoming is also entirely on LeBron.

And Phil Jackson's championships were on team's featuring arguably three of the greatest players of all times: Jordan, O'Neal, and Briant. I wouldn't argue that O'Neal and Briant's rings were a result of Phil Jackson.

Total assists per game don't account for usage rate or minutes played. If Jordan played all 48 every game and had the ball in his hands 80% of the time, of course he'd end up with a ton of assists, simply because every shot (besides the ones he makes) is most likely to have come after a pass directly from him.

Championships are a very overrated way to rate any player. Tremendous luck goes into winning any championship. Less impactful players can win rings by taking a lesser salary and "ring hunting" with contenders (as you already point out). Championships can be a factor in determining a player's greatness, but let's not make them the sole determinant.

There are factors that work in favor of your argument as well. The pace of the game has increased, so that accounts for a degree of statistical inflation alone (which again advanced stats help to account for). Not sure how these impact things, but hree pointers have become a much bigger part of the game, defensive hand checking is outlawed, and zone defense has been legalized.

This is hacker news, home of the nerds. If we're going to talk stats in sports, let's do it right!

siegler notes that we're all complex beings who can be assholes some of the time. he notes jordan also has a great sense of branding and image, and plays it up for the camera.

but there's no doubt that given the level of talent and relative parity at the top of any sport, you need to develop an edge, and jordan could do that, by poking, prodding, and pushing his teammates to rise rather than remain complacent.

“Winning has a price. And leadership has a price.”

the price jordan paid wasn't at the expense of the respect and friendship of his teammates, otherwise they wouldn't have won so much together. in other words, he wasn't just an asshole.