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Re:Termux and Android 10 by tmpz22 on Monday May 18, 2020 @01:55PM (#23225925)
Tablet companies really need to realize that a decent tablet with a decent dev experience is going to lead to an explosion of developers on their platform and result directly in way higher quality apps and therefore way better sales and brand.

Imagine if websites couldn’t be developed on normal desktop computers and you had to run an extremely inefficient emulator every time you wanted to make a small notification.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by AgloeDreams on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:07PM (#23226127)
That would be ChromeOS tablets. Full linux terminal in container and all. Hasn't really made any difference.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by MereInterest on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:41PM (#23228084)
About once every 2-3 months, something would be changed in ChromeOS that would break the crouton installation. The solution could be as simple as updating crouton, only 15-30 minutes of lost time, to switching to/from a later development version of ChromeOS, 3-4 hours of lost time as the entire hard drive is wiped and you need to rebuild the environment.

The use of a Linux environment in ChromeOS should only be viewed as a toy, because the ChromeOS developers are willing to break it at any time.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by hsitz on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:54PM (#23228244)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Crouton is different from Crostini, and it's Crostini that is the default/built-in Linux container on Chromeos (on a Pixelbook). I've been using Crostini on Chromeos since November 2018 and I've never had "the hard drive wiped" or had to rebuild the environment. I'm trying hard to recall anything that's actually been a bug. I'm sure there've been some. Mostly they've been rolling out increased features on a pretty regular basis, with few hiccups. It's not a great solution for everything, but, to me, it's been surprisingly robust and useful.

It certainly is not "a toy". The Pixelbook is a beautiful piece of hardware, but I wouldn't be using it (at least not as a contented Chromeos user) if it didn't have the built-in Linux container.

I do follow Chromeos/Crostini/Pixelbook forums somewhat online. I know I've seen some people griping about problems caused by updates. From what I can tell, a very large percent of these people are ones who were using Chromeos/Crostini with the 'dev' or 'beta' branch, so they could get new features on their device sooner. I've been on 'Stable' and have had few complaints.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by michaelmrose on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:29PM (#23229993)
Chrome OS historically has been the most thoroughly mediocre desktop experience available on any device. Inferior to windows, traditional Linux, or Mac worthy of note only in that one could find one at Walmart for $200.

Between launch in 2009 and 2018 the necessary escape hatch to run real Linux was a flaky tool called crouton. 9 years later a better but more complicated tool exists with caviates like

> Can I run X programs?

>Yes, although you might run into some compatibility kinks, and it probably will never be as perfect as running a traditional X server. However, with the wider community moving to Wayland, it should be good enough.

So running real Linux but somehow less capable than wsl?

I understand why people buy $200 devices to watch Netflix on. I do not understand people buying expensive fake Linux device, learning a complex chrome OS specific framework to sort of run actual Linux applications that would be trivial to run on an actual Linux computer out of the box.

It speaks of an enjoyment of complexity for its own sake. This isn't exactly a sin. People also like to say make their own clothes but it's rather hard to recommend.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by hsitz on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:34PM (#23230428)
Well, I bought my first computer (TRS-80) in 1979, first laptop in 1990, and I've had lots of different computers. MS-DOS, nearly every version of Windows, Linux versions since 1995, never a Mac OS but I got an iPad last year. Right now I have one Windows laptop, one dual boot Windows/Linux laptop (mostly Linux), a Raspberry Pi running Raspbian Linux, the iPad, and the Pixelbook.

I got the Pixelbook on sort of a lark, on sale for $699 back in November 2018. The hardware is 8GB, Core i5 processor, 128GB ssd, 2.4 pounds, beautiful 2400x1600 (that's 3 by 2) touch-screen display, high quality construction, excellent keyboard and trackpad. 10 hours battery life. And fanless. (Also 2-in-1 form factor, flips around for use as tablet.) I didn't expect it to become my main computer, but it has.

Complex? Well, I don't know about that, but they do say the mark of a good product is that it makes complex things seem simple. Or something like that. That's what I'd say, anyway, about the Pixelbook. Best machine I've ever owned. I'd rather be running full Linux with i3 window manager, but it's not worth switching (and giving up instant boot and higher security of Chromeos).

I don't think I'd recommend Pixelbook/Crostini if you're heavily into x-window apps on Linux. I rarely use them; I'm mostly just on the console/terminal and it works well. I've tried Firefox in Crostini, works fine, but it's not as snappy as Chrome.

RE: Google. I'm not a fan of Google, so have to get past that when liking the Pixelbook. And it seems Google is not very good at supporting their hardware. Fortunately, I haven't had anything go wrong. At some point I will want to upgrade to a more powerful machine, I expect. Light weight (the closer to 2 lbs the better), good battery life, and fanless operation are important to me, and I'm not sure there's any machine out there that I'd pick over the Pixelbook right now. At least not for a reasonable cost. Pretty amazing given that Pixelbook came out in 2017 and I paid only $699 for it.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by michaelmrose on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:53PM (#23231139)
Instant boot is best described as suspend to ram but that is a pretty screen/battery life for the price.

I'm not convinced the security is notably better.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by hsitz on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:53AM (#23231369)
The chromeos boot actually isn't quite instant, even if they call it that. But it is not at all suspend to ram; it's a full boot in the space of a few seconds. Of course, most of the time I just do a suspend, like an ordinary notebook. But the lighter-weight less resource-intensive chromeos is a benefit, snappier than Windows or OS X would be on the same hardware, that's for sure.

Ha, not surprised you don't believe security is better. Security is on the level of iOS or Android, everything is sandboxed. ( https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/3438631?hl=en ) And updates are as smooth and unobtrusive as they are on iOS or Android; don't get me started about problems with Windows updates.

Really, it's not bad. It's surprisingly really good. Of course, if it weren't for Crostini/Linux it would be too limited for many people to use as their main computer. But with Crostini, it's pretty great for the right users. Pixelbook hardware in particular has a quality feel, makes you feel good just to use it. And the software has a polished feel, too. It just works. Windows, in comparison, feels like a clunky mess; a complex, clunky, mess.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by MereInterest on Monday May 18, 2020 @05:32PM (#23228625)
Looks like Crostini is the official tool that duplicated the functionality of the the more homebrew Crouton. Crostini came out in early 2018, which was about half a year after I gave up on using linux on chromebooks out of frustration.

https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/master/c...

Re:Termux and Android 10 by AgloeDreams on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:28AM (#23235231)
Crouton is not crostini and in addition, the way it is implemented makes it easy to backup and restore containers.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by AsyncAwait on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:38PM (#23226616)
As a Linux user, the last thing I want to do is use a computer controlled by Google. I am however typing this on a Mirosoft Surface Pro 7 running Linux.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by toohotatopic on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:09PM (#23227741)
>Android 10 Is killing Termux terminal app

Remember who owns Android.

It's not worth investing time into a platform that will be further restricted sooner or later. Why should they treat the tablet differently?

Re:Termux and Android 10 by ta17711771 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @02:16AM (#23231780)
Yes, but who owns AOSP?
Re:Termux and Android 10 by Legogris on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:33PM (#23226532)
Also Microsoft Surface.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by neogodless on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:32PM (#23229613)
For clarification...

Surface Pro - full Windows tablet with separate keyboard

Surface Laptop - normal Windows laptop

Surface Book - Windows laptop with beefy detachable keyboard/battery (may have dGPU!)

Surface Pro X - (almost full) Windows tablet on ARM

Surface RT - Ran Windows RT (no desktop x86) on ARM

Surface Studio - Windows All-in-one PC with very nice big screen

Re:Termux and Android 10 by jefftk on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:23PM (#23230703)
And even earlier:

Surface - interactive table (now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PixelSense)

Re:Termux and Android 10 by barbecue_sauce on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:40PM (#23226638)
Aren't Surfaces just Windows laptops?
Re:Termux and Android 10 by jbay808 on Monday May 18, 2020 @03:11PM (#23227065)
Aren't tablets just laptops without keyboards?
Re:Termux and Android 10 by mkl on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:34PM (#23229627)
And Surface Pro keyboards are bought separately.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by ta17711771 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @02:17AM (#23231788)
Surface Pro 1-3 w/ keyboard is $120-$200 on eBay...
Re:Termux and Android 10 by tenebrisalietum on Monday May 18, 2020 @03:13PM (#23227087)
With touchscreens and Microsoft branded/built UEFI.

Except the RT - that was an ARM tablet.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by distantaidenn on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:30PM (#23229606)
About 3 years ago my 2012 MBP finally gave up the ghost. I was traveling frequently at the time and still had my trusty Mac Mini. So I decided to get a tablet. I did tons of research and it came down to a spec’d iPad Pro with all the bells and whistles vs. a mid range MS Surface. I’m an engineer so I need to code.

I got caught up in the Apple fanfare, and shame on me for not doing better research, but the thing was near impossible to use for coding. It’s a beautiful tool, but not one that fit my development needs. I ended up using it as a 2 monitor for my Mac Mini and a media consumption device. In hindsight, I shoulda went with the Surface.

All I wanna do is be able to code on an iPad. Yeah I know it’s currently possible, but have you tried it!? Is that asking too much?

Re:Termux and Android 10 by jlarocco on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:27PM (#23229122)
I don't buy that argument. Game console developers don't develop on the device they're targeting, and it hasn't really hindered them. So why do mobile devs need to develop on those devices? Mobile form factor and UI just isn't suitable for software development, and the companies making them realize it.

There's a lot wrong with Android development (IMO), but the lack of an on-device dev environment isn't one of them...

Re:Termux and Android 10 by RandallBrown on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:52PM (#23226828)
I'm not sure that an explosion of developers would lead to higher quality apps.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by choeger on Monday May 18, 2020 @05:10PM (#23228414)
I certainly know about some developers that would increase software quality by exploding...
Re:Termux and Android 10 by jfkebwjsbx on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:46PM (#23226743)
Why would anyone want a tablet if a laptop is an option?
Re:Termux and Android 10 by ClumsyPilot on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:23PM (#23229953)
This never made any sense to me -> going from a multi-monitor setup to a laptop feels like i am handicapped man suffering from tunnel vision. I can't imagine what coding on a tablet feels like.
Re:Termux and Android 10 by mst on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:37PM (#23228031)
I carry an 8" android tablet and a 10" bluetooth keyboard w/trackpoint in my jacket basically any time I leave the house.

The tablet functions as a messaging device and phone, and then if I want to sit in a coffee shop and code I break out the keyboard.

Admittedly so long as I could get mosh as an app I'd probably survive without termux, but it wouldn't be nearly as nice a setup.

Re:Termux and Android 10 by chx on Monday May 18, 2020 @03:31PM (#23227302)
> Tablet companies really need to realize that a decent tablet with a decent dev experience is going to lead to an explosion of developers on their platform

What do you base this statement on?