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Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by jml7c5 on Monday May 04, 2020 @09:59AM (#23068135)
Around 500,000 people died of malaria in 2018. COVID-19 deaths are currently at 250,000 (according to worldometers.info), but deaths are only just starting to slow down, and it's unclear how many deaths are going unreported. (There has been suggestion that in some places, actual deaths may be twice as high; apparently even after one adds reported COVID-19 deaths to an area's expected "regular" deaths, there is a shortfall vs actual deaths.)

It's worth noting that in terms of person-years lost, an average malaria death is significantly worse as it predominantly kills children under the age of 5.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by koheripbal on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:00AM (#23068837)
The 2018 number is 405K according to the WHO - and it's dropping every year, significantly, despite exploding populations.

source: https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/world-m...

Tremendous progress is being made against Malaria. Of course, it's not enough until will destroy this scourge.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by jml7c5 on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:02PM (#23069628)
I'm not sure how I ended up with "around 500,000" instead of the (readily available) actual number. Thank you for the correction.
Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by roywiggins on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:44AM (#23068658)
Someone has actually crunched the numbers on this! The person-years lost for COVID is currently about 10 years on average.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-kills-people-an-ave...

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by kurthr on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:53AM (#23069483)
Alternately, the person years of those children haven’t started, and can easily be replaced... Maybe we shouldn’t just be ranking people by age, if we want to come to moral outcomes?
Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by gajomi on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:29PM (#23070852)
> we shouldn’t just be ranking people by age, if we want to come to moral outcomes?

Agreed. But I think quantifications can still be useful.

Person-years probably aren't the right sort of quantification though, in that they blend together too many kinds of human experience. But I imagine most people would agree that statements like "X% of grandparents, lost 10 years earlier than expected" or "Y% of children under 10" allow for comparing the relative impact on families.

Quantifying losses doesn't mean that we consider the quantified as fungible.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @08:04AM (#23079089)
> Quantifying losses doesn't mean that we consider the quantified as fungible.

Unless you're a hospital director on a budget, or something. (I don't know how such people cope; there's no winning decision there.)

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by lotsofpulp on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:31PM (#23074624)
I don’t understand what you mean when you write person years of those children haven’t started yet? They were born, so how have their person years not started?

And in context of opportunity cost, in a situation where limited medical resources need to be allocated, it’s not a controversial opinion that a 90 year old can be let go in favor of saving a 10 year old.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by SamReidHughes on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:32PM (#23076196)
The notion of valuing a life at age 15 higher than at age 5 is pretty reasonable. If the value starts at zero at conception, ends at zero at death, then -- if it's a continuous function -- there has to be a rising curve followed by a falling curve. And this seems to fit with some choices I'd make in contrived trolley problem scenarios. Though it's not the only variable, when you get to particularities.
Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by SamBam on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:21AM (#23068365)
> in terms of person-years lost

"Potential" person years lost, I guess. If you used "person years" the same way you use "Our firm has a combined 125 years of experience" then it's the other way round.

(Grim discussion, I guess, but I'm just not certain I agree with the unspoken assumption that seems to be in that statement, that the younger the death, the more tragic/more effect on society.)

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by jml7c5 on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:14PM (#23069812)
Yes, "potential person years" or a similar phrasing would have been clearer.

>(Grim discussion, I guess, but I'm just not certain I agree with the unspoken assumption that seems to be in that statement, that the younger the death, the more tragic/more effect on society.)

It is a matter of morality and personal ethics. I chose to mention it only because the discrepancy in this case is so large, and it felt almost misleading to not relate the information. That said, I regret framing it in such a coldly utilitarian way.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by vikramkr on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:22PM (#23071469)
These cold terms are how these discussions are had in industry. It's the core behind value based pricing - quality adjusted life years or QALYs are what many health systems use to determine what they will or wont pay for. As long as money is scarce, these are how conversations are had. A drug that saves a child's life is worth more, and people are willing to pay more, than a drug that saves an older person's life. There are cutoffs and thresholds. In the UK, with a few exceptions, a drug cant cost much more than 30 thousand pounds for each extra quality adjusted year of life (e.g. an extra year bedridden might only count as 30% of a year, while an extra year closer to functional might count as 95%) for NICE to approve paying for it. In the developing world, the value of a human life is set at about 2x GDP per capita per QALY. In the US, for a drug to be cost effective, it should be less than 150,000 dollars per QALY (but many drugs aren't).
Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by thaumasiotes on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:18PM (#23072129)
The usual metric is QALY, "quality-adjusted life years". (The idea of quality adjustment being that three years of being 82-84 isn't as good as three years of being 22-24.)
Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by xiphias2 on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:11AM (#23068973)
It's a horrible assumption. I know that my parents probably have only 5-15 years of their life left, so I make sure to have contact with them as much as possible, and keep up longevity research, though I know that they don't like to experiment as much as I would in their place.
Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by SamBam on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:54PM (#23071142)
> I know that they don't like to experiment as much as I would in their place.

Hard to know. Do you think there's zero chance that, when you're their age, you might be the one telling your adult kid that you've had a happy, long life, and don't feel the need to experiment with longevity?

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by HarryHirsch on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:10AM (#23068968)
average malaria death is significantly worse as it predominantly kills children under the age of 5

It's not only deaths, it's also lost opportunity, as malaria is a chronic disease. Children miss out on schooling, adults miss out on work, and malarious areas miss out on investment.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by jimmaswell on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:38AM (#23069295)
> unclear how many deaths are going unreported

I'd been hearing the numbers might be inflated from diagnoses on dead people without tests. Hard to know what's really going on with anything with all the conflicting information.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by SamBam on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:00PM (#23071211)
Almost certainly the other way around. The most useful measure is "excess deaths" -- those are simply the statistical "excess" of deaths we are currently experiencing compared with the average at this time in years past, and are uninfluenced by diagnoses, coroners, politicians, etc.

Here are some good state-by state graphs [1], and here's a country-wide graph [2]

By any measure, our "excess deaths" since February have spiked enormously, and significantly more than the current official Covid death count.

Some may be due to hospitals overflowing preventing other care. But it's pretty clearly all Corona-related.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronaviru...

2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2020/05/02/exc...

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by ballenf on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:15PM (#23072101)
I agree, but the real number would be comparing to lockdown death rates w/o covid.

Over the past few years, the evidence linking human health and overall mortality to isolation and human contact has been increasing. Don't get me wrong I'm staying locked down for the foreseeable future, but I have family and close friends whose mental health I'm seriously worried about. Not to mention physical health from stress, isolation, reduced activity, and can't afford to eat as healthy / stress-eating.

No idea if those are trends that will even come close to direct covid deaths, but we can't make informed decisions considering them.

> But it's pretty clearly all Corona-related.

If you count the above as "Corona-related", then I don't think the number has much meaning in terms of informing public policy.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by xoa on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:43PM (#23073021)
It actually has been studied and it looks like, in terms of absolute bulk numbers, that at least in developed countries like the US lockdown decreases deaths overall. Here's an Ars article from last week with a summary and some links for some further reading if you're interested [1]. Basically though while suicides go up, a lot of other causes of death plummet. Auto accidents for example a big source of yearly mortality that drop a ton if, well, people aren't getting in their vehicles so much. Air pollution has plummeted [2] as well, another significant source of deaths. People are bored at home and thus work out more, tend to eat better, etc.

Of course as that article and any other responsible ones should point out, the benefits and harms fall quite unevenly, and there is a lot of real misery too. And at some point the economic harm from ongoing lock down would certainly affect more and more people regardless of previous income. But even so as far as society overall goes it at worst looks like a wash right now, and seems more likely to lean towards fewer deaths. So excess vs previous years does look like a valid number to use as some level of gut check given the ongoing poor state of testing.

----

1: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/recessions-dont-lead...

2: https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-offers-a-clear-view...

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by joshuahedlund on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:54AM (#23069509)
> Hard to know what's really going on with anything with all the conflicting information.

Yes, but you don't have to give up. If you use critical thinking and assess the competing claims and the strength of the evidence for them, it becomes clear that the evidence for inflated counts is extremely weak, bordering on hearsay, and inconsistent with the overall data, while the evidence for extra uncounted deaths is much broader and stronger and consistent with the overall data, so while there is uncertainty about the true numbers, on net it's reasonable to assume more deaths are being missed than overcounted.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by amenod on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:40PM (#23072390)
Does that really seem reasonable to you?

Should we assume that social isolation, lack of physical activity, change of habits, being laid off a job and worse health care (preventive for example) have no impact on the number of deaths? That's quite a big assumption.

Re:Malaria 'Completely Stopped' by Microbe by jml7c5 on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:30PM (#23070023)
Take a look at: https://fullfact.org/health/covid-deaths/

There are certainly some deaths being incorrectly attributed to COVID-19, but I think the data conclusively rejects the hypothesis that there is rampant COVID-19 over-reporting.