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Re:Good writing is a business advantage by austincheney on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:38AM (#23018347)
Superior writing skills are one of two things that separate novice developers from experts. This, as judged from experience, is self-evident to all people except bad developers. Here are the criteria that are generally most important:

* precision: This is perhaps most important. The ability to communicate tiny finite details that immediately reflects the product as a whole in a way that is universally clear to a wide audience in the same way is paramount.

* directness: Say what you mean. Don’t waste people’s time with distractions and pleasantries. Put the most important things first. If the audience wishes to read more they will.

* conciseness: There is an art to the careful description of technical details, behaviors, and examination of a subject that is both precise and still expressed in the fewest words/statements. An extended vocabulary is helpful.

* organization: Almost everything complex is open to more simplistic description as a subject of intrinsic relationships. The ability to perceive, understand, and convey those relationships is logic at its most base foundation but only when the those relationships are orderly and supported by evidence.

A common mistake is to be clever about organization, relationships, and their logic. Don’t do that. People do this as a weak form of manipulation, but strong communicators will tear it apart.

All of these points on writing are directly evident in well written code as well as formally expressed writings for general audiences.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by snowwrestler on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:06PM (#23021526)
Here's the "one weird tip" life hack to do all of these things: revise and rewrite.

Important communications should go through multiple drafts. That includes important emails. Write it all out, then re-read it carefully, ideally after a bit of time has passed. Edit with an eye toward making it shorter. Rewrite it from scratch if you have to.

I once had the good fortune to take a writing class with Edward Hoagland. We spent most of the semester with each student working on a single essay--reviewing it, editing it, rewriting it, rewriting it.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:03PM (#23022847)
My last writing professor didn't have a Wikipedia page, but he was fantastic, and taught with an approach on iteration: He allowed us to submit our assignments for review, and then let us take back the paper to work on it more, and we could continue to do that until it was an A paper.

This essentially guaranteed everyone an A in the course, if they did the work. But the focus was on getting you to improve your writing, not to fail people out. My opinion is that this is how writing should be taught, rather than giving you one shot to get a grade.

(I also once had a writing teacher who gave me a zero for a paper because it wasn't submitted in a manilla folder, and no late submissions were accepted, so I had no chance to fix it.)

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:13PM (#23024377)
My father was a professor of business finance for a few years. He wrote on the board the first lecture that if any of the following words were misspelled, it was an automatic F:

1. business

2. entrepreneur

3. your, you're

4. its, it's

5. they're, their, there

Also, for the term paper due at the end of the semester, for every day the paper was late, one grade would be subtracted. I.e. 2 days late meant a B would become a D. No excuses would be accepted, as they had the entire term to get it done.

The first time he taught this course, half the students were a day or more late. He followed through. The next year, word apparently got out as he only received one late paper.

His point was that in business, excuses were not acceptable.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:14PM (#23026481)
The example I gave was of a terrible writing professor: I learned no writing in her course. Because when her arbitrary requirement that the paper be in a manilla folder cost me two letter grades for the whole course, I dropped her course, rather than accept a C as my highest achievable grade. It's the sole withdrawal in my entire transcript. Furthermore, I never got any legitimate feedback on the paper, which I put a lot of time and thought into.

It's important to teach the values of timeliness and attention to detail, but you aren't teaching anything if you're not giving students a way to recover and improve.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @10:13PM (#23026798)
There was a lot of skepticism with this from the students at first. They didn't take it seriously. But after the first semester, the students took a liking to "no bullshit, no excuses" and thrived on it. His classes swelled with students.

If you're in business, and write business letters misspelling "business", you aren't going to be taken seriously (though you likely won't realize why the rejections are happening). If you graduate from a business school and can't spell "business" then the school's reputation suffers, too.

In college, you're an adult. The requirement that "business" be spelled correctly is made quite clear. No excuses, no bullshit.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @10:33PM (#23026905)
But while the second year, the "word had gotten out", how many students may he have seriously harmed the careers of to make his "point" in the meantime? Would a subtler corrective action been equally effective at outputting successful students without harming others?
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @10:56PM (#23027009)
I remember a story about Chuck Yeager. He was put in command of an Air Force base during the Korean War. He noticed the pilots were putting in sloppy landings.

So one day, he got the pilots together, went out to the runway, painted two strips crossways and demanded that all pilots touch down within the stripes. There was a bunch of whining about it from the pilots that it was unfair and impossible.

So Yeager fired up a jet, took off, circled the field, and landed precisely in the center between the lines. He got no more guff from the pilots and they straightened up.

Me, if I was in a combat squadron I'd choose to serve under Yeager rather than a commander that tolerated sloppy flying skills. Sloppy skills will get you killed in aviation and especially combat.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by mhh__ on Friday May 01, 2020 @10:38PM (#23048649)
Curtis LeMay apparently had a similar issue with the abort rate over japan (Pilots making up technical issues to avoid getting over the target/flak), so his solution was "I fly in the lead plane, anyone who turns around gets court-martialled" -> abort rate drops over night.

Story is taken from "The Fog of War" as told by Robert S. McNamara.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @10:50PM (#23026977)
I more or less failed my freshman classes in college, got the kick in the pants I badly needed, straightened out, and wound up graduating with honors.

Caltech had a famous class, EE91 lab. The rules were simple. The first week, you produced a spec for a project. If the spec was approved, you had the whole semester to get it done. If the project met the spec, you got an A. If you didn't, you got an F. Again, no excuses, no bullshit. It was a very popular class.

I took it too, was very careful to spec something I could accomplish and got it done well in advance.

These students aren't in kindergarten. They're adults in college. And getting your project designed, built, and debugged is a LOT harder than remembering how to spell "business".

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @11:01PM (#23027031)
> the second year

The disservice to the students was done by all their prior teachers who'd make such conditions and never enforce them, and they didn't believe my dad would, either. What was he supposed to say, this time I really really mean it? (He did say that.)

I've heard innumerable such conditions from teachers, none of them ever followed through except EE91 lab.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by ak39 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:18PM (#23023012)
Your comment made my day. That professor is one incredibly great teacher! Imagine indeed if all teaching was done like this. Standardised testing and reliance of testing memory is probably robbing generations of gifted students.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by dvnguyen on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @06:17PM (#23025143)
Thank you for the story. If I have a chance teaching coding, I'll definitely steal that assignment.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by Tade0 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:17PM (#23022372)
> Write it all out, then re-read it carefully, ideally after a bit of time has passed. Edit with an eye toward making it shorter. Rewrite it from scratch if you have to.

That's what I've been doing. I'm not an amazing developer, but with time and effort I am able to refactor my way to decent code.

Forgetfulness has been my ally - if you forget about something you're obviously not attached to it, so it's easier to throw it out and replace with something better.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by JoshTriplett on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:51PM (#23023377)
Agreed completely. Related skill: learn to read and type fast, because there's no upper bound where it stops being useful. It's easier to re-read and revise if you can do both quickly. If you have half the typing speed, revising takes twice as long, and given the same amount of time you'll be able to do less of it.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by kd5bjo on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:00PM (#23023489)
> If you have half the typing speed, revising takes twice as long

In my experience, this isn't true. When revising, most of my time is spent considering what changes I can make and not putting them into practice. If the bottleneck is thinking, raising your typing speed will provide marginal gains at best.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by JoshTriplett on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:11PM (#23023608)
I'm not suggesting that revising is solely a matter of re-reading and re-typing. I'm suggesting that I've found them to be a notable component, and that I can do more revising when I can quickly take a possible revision and type it out and reread it to see how it looks.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by Kinrany on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:16PM (#23023676)
It's true if you're using writing for thinking.

(Not claiming that that's actually faster, or otherwise.)

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by frostwhale on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:59PM (#23022150)
As someone who had issues with this before, can second this is the best advice. As well as running it by someone else to see if they're picking up on the narrative you're trying to convey.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by thirdsun on Friday May 01, 2020 @11:27AM (#23042965)
Indeed. Although it’s ok to start with short sketches, expanding on them before finally cutting it down again. My writing often starts with a rough list of bullet points and loose thoughts before being revised, structured, properly phrased, edited repeatedly and shaped into final form.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:47PM (#23023336)
> Rewrite it from scratch if you have to.

Rewrite from scratch as necessary. :-)

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by heinrichhartman on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:59AM (#23018552)
Great list. Let me add a few things:

* Ad Precision/Conciseness: When crossing disciplines from Math => Software, this annoyed me to no end: I was not able to express myself concisely. I found that vocabulary is a large part of this, I knew what I meant but did not have the words for it. This is stuff like: call site. caller callee. function signature. deployment vs. installation vs. release

Also you need good words to describe the objects/systems that you are building, and the domain your are operating in. This is why NAMING things is so critical. You need to have good words for the concepts you are working with.

* Ad Directness: Yes. But try to avoid value judgements and insults. Stay objective: "This code is shit!" vs. "I don't think the case X==0 is handled correctly."

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by abnry on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:58AM (#23019256)
For the developers in the comments, having a better vocabulary is like having a better standard library. If you have to describe the details of a basic data structure every time you bring it up, you will lose the audience. The psychological concept of chunking plays an important role here. By encapsulating a complicated concept into a single package you increase comprehension and the ability to reason.

There is the same thing in mathematics where coming up with definitions (standard library functions) are crucial. One of the biggest developments in calculus was a rigorous definition of continuity. The definition itself is complicated. However, once you encapsulate the entire concept into the single word "continuity," you can start exploring and proving many more theorems.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by KineticLensman on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @11:57AM (#23020717)
> you need good words to describe the objects/systems that you are building

Totally agree! And I would add, once you have come up with a word (or label), stick with it. There is nothing worse, in technical writing, than an author who keeps using different terms for the same thing in a single document. It leaves the reader with the task of keeping track of what is being described, and thus makes the doc harder to read.

I think there are several reasons for this:

* authors showing off their extensive vocabulary

* authors trying to add novelty by using new synonyms

* authors who haven't checked other parts of the doc to see what was said elsewhere.

In technical writing, the author's job is to communicate as consistently as possible to reduce the cognitive burden on the reader.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:06PM (#23024301)
Like, I totally agree. Frankly, you're so right. Know what I mean? People really write too many words, basically, to say something they could express quite readily in far fewer words. Man, sentences go on and on saying the same thing over and over. I'll be honest, this is wearying and tiresome to read. Can't people simplify and get to the point? Do people even bother to read what they write? Too be perfectly honest, this is tiresome and tedious.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by austincheney on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:51PM (#23024829)
It's not just the written word. The same applies to the spoken word as well.

When people in the military ask me how to improve their spoken word I tell them to focus only on rhythm and otherwise regard their content as sewage. Once the word is flushed from your mouth you cannot have it back. If the sewage (speech) stops flowing unintentionally the system backs up and cognitive problems take over, so keep pushing words out at a regular pace. That regular pace will eliminate the need for gap words like: uh, um, and ah. The content of the sewage is generally less important than the audience's reaction, so always be ready to pivot without causing a sewage backup.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:21PM (#23025761)
When people start a sentence with "I'll be honest with you" I'll often rudely interrupt saying "you mean you weren't honest before?"

Yes, I know it is a meaningless filler phrase. I got tired of watching "American Chopper" partly because the son started every sentence with that phrase.

A colleague basically of mine basically interjected "basically" between basically every couple basically of words, basically. So I basically started basically writing basically a lot of "basically" interjections basically in my basically emails basically to basically him. Fortunately, he basically had basically a great basically sense of basically humor. Like, totally.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by austincheney on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:39PM (#23025891)
My favorite phrase to use in these situations is to use this as a compliment: It could be worse. It seems contrary to agree with as though the topic is horrible, but disagreement means the topic is the worst. It forces a moment of self reflection and then people suddenly become aware of the words spoken.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by Noumenon72 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:32PM (#23025840)
Um, when I pause from time to time it's because pearls are dripping from my mouth and I want them to come out fully formed. A sewage metaphor would never have occurred to me.

I will confess that what I say is usually entirely determined by what I have to say, without checking for my audience's reaction.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by john4534243 on Friday May 01, 2020 @04:34AM (#23040180)
> It's not just the written word. The same applies to the spoken word as well.

Writing can not be compared with speaking. Writing has the advantage of thinking over multiple times and editing before sending out the final draft.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by greeniron on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @05:55PM (#23024883)
not sure too many people caught your satire.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by diegoperini on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:59PM (#23026392)
Even when all words removed and only the punctuation is kept, it is still visible, by the amount of question marks.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by WalterBright on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:15PM (#23025714)
If they didn't catch it, I succeeded!
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by duckmysick on Thursday April 30, 2020 @05:15AM (#23028950)
It doesn't add anything to the discussion.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by bradstewart on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:06PM (#23020806)
So much this. Calls to mind one of my favorite quotes (one of the few specific things I remember from high school actually):

“Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell.”

― William Strunk Jr., The Elements of Style

Precise writing is absolutely critical for communicating complex ideas, yet rarely at the front of people's minds (at least in the software world). I feel like the move to Slack and other chat apps has made the problem worse.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by morelisp on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:17PM (#23023000)
As so often is the case when quoting Strunk, he violates his own rules.

"Vigorous writing is concise and should contain no unnecessary words or sentences. But the goal is not conciseness per se, rather that every word tell."

The analogy with machines unnecessary; the analogy with drawing incorrect; the hypothetical writer a distraction.

And yet, it's not as forceful. Maybe he's just plain wrong?

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by john4534243 on Friday May 01, 2020 @04:50AM (#23040252)
I can see you point. In technical writing the analogies are useless when the point is clear enough. But in this case I felt his analogies were useful in making it memorable. By the way i wish in the business word or at least in the software development world, correcting each others emails and posts are encouraged without punishment or reward.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by bradstewart on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:32PM (#23034354)
There's certainly no hard and fast rule here. Much is left to the opinions of the author.

I'd argue that the analogy is necessary--it adds force to the argument, as you note. Assuming the point of his statement is to convince the reader of something.

Side note: solid use of the semicolon there.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by morelisp on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:25PM (#23035023)
> Assuming the point of his statement is to convince the reader of something.

This is the fundamental problem.

S&W is very good at taking people who "can't write" and teaching them 1) writing is a skill, 2) you can improve by practice, and 3) the basic practice is not very hard. I don't think it's a coincidence that the book remains popular among engineers who (often justifiably, based on some bad teacher) have been turned off to writing.

But also because writing is a skill, the achievable level is very high. (Much higher than I will achieve. I have a family member who is a professional author and dabbles in software development; I see where they are in software development, and realize I'm at the same place in writing). And there are different types of writing, for different goals, towards different audiences. Persuasive writing is not the same as technical documentation is not the same as poetry!

All of this matters but S&W pretend it doesn't.

A former CTO of mine told me of their previous position (where their reportees were writing primarily Java; we were writing a different language): The value of Java is that it establishes a floor. Anyone hired could be guaranteed not to fuck things up and contribute at least X additional value or work on features of at least Y complexity, and in that market / at that scale that was more important than providing an environment that made it easy for the experts to excel (which they could still do, just with more effort).

The book offers specific rules to follow, and if you follow them you will achieve at least mediocre writing. It's the Java of informative writing. If you are awful at writing and internalize those lessons you will improve and it will probably be some kind of professional boon. But there is so much more to writing, and you do yourself such a great personal disservice if you don't at least glimpse it.

(On the other hand, at the time I told that CTO I couldn't imagine working at such a place, and they agreed it wasn't appropriate for the current workplace. Now I'm touching management level in another company where I wish more of our programmers had a "mediocre language" floor rather than the more free-wheeling approach the company has. It seems there are very few places where the rewards of expertise beat the averages. But on the other hand, I still fucking hate writing Java.)

As for the analogy: without the "drawing" part, it might at least be accurate - but a lot of its force rests on that lie. Persuading people with lies is easy, but, well, wrong.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by zxcmx on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:35PM (#23023220)
Since the extra words express the point more forcefully, perhaps they were necessary after all :p
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by lhorie on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:32PM (#23021074)
> conciseness

There's also an important nuance here: clarity. Many times re-reading something I've written, I realized that I was being concise, but at the expense of clarity, by using jargon without explaining it. One needs to be careful not to be too concise, or they risk going over the reader's head.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by gozzoo on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:04PM (#23021490)
I think clarity is more important than conciseness. Furthermore, sometimes when explainng a complex topic I find myself being deliberately too verbose. I try to provide more context, like giving examples, anecdotes, explaing the same concept from different points of view, exploring contradicting ideas, etc.

good writing != concise writing

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by john-tells-all on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:52PM (#23023389)
I agree! Often my writing is too short: I know what I mean in my head, but the ideas don't translate to the words on the page.

My friend gave me great advice: he asked "hey can you unpack that for me?" -- my text was too concise and not clear.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by danenania on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:34PM (#23023213)
That’s a great list! One thing I would add is empathy. There seem to be a lot of great engineers who are also strong communicators, but still struggle with this.

For example, if someone encounters a problem when running or integrating code you’ve written, you will almost always get to the heart of the problem more efficiently and with less negative emotion if you start by demonstrating that you empathize with that person’s frustration. That’s true even if the issue ends up being something on their side of the line. Acting defensive in these situations is natural, especially if you feel that anger is being directed at you unfairly, but it tends to just get in the way of finding a solution.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by john-tells-all on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:50PM (#23023366)
Absolutely. It's incredibly easy to be a condescending engineer, thus sabotaging yourself and your ideas. Practicing empathy is a tremendous benefit to yourself and your team!

Esther Nam clearly explained this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYWlfVqBQLc

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by john4534243 on Friday May 01, 2020 @05:24AM (#23040407)
In my opinion anyone who does not have verifiable proof for their technical competency is not worth the time listening to their talk. I am not saying they don't have valid points but its too much of an ask.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by Tepix on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:00AM (#23018564)
Developers who are good writers are just a small subset of writers. There are other skills in demand for writers in different areas.

For example if a developer were to fullfil all the criteria you listed, the result could still be extremely boring and dull for the general audience you mention.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by k__ on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:59PM (#23021435)
Yes.

I haven't met a single senior dev in person that could write good.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by asdffdsa on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:50PM (#23022039)
well
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by matwood on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:16PM (#23022982)
I completely agree that writing skills are paramount to grow as a developer and beyond. While I agree there is no reason to wax poetic in an email, I find that normal professional pleasantries help the communication process.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by BurningFrog on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:41PM (#23021180)
Also, though many developers don't even realize it, writing code is storytelling for human code readers.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by lloeki on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:06PM (#23022873)
> Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.

- Harold Abelson

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by dandare on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:46PM (#23022685)
This is sucha priviledget statement. Writing skills depend a lot on the brain predisposition you were lucky to be born with. (Actually like almost any other skills ;). ) As a partial dislectic (it comes in circles) the biggest challenge in my career is my communication skill. There are day when I spend 3x time to write a compelling sentence. I am envy of all the C leve psychopaths that can hash any negative announcement in a full page email, full of inclusion, praise, buzzwords and more pulp. Good communication skills are super useful but loosely correlated with knowledge or dedication.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by gozzoo on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:16PM (#23023678)
> C leve psychopaths

I like this expression. Your dyslexia didn't hinder your ability to come up with such original metaphor.

Elon Musk is a good example of that. I mean his writing of course :)

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by dfsegoat on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:56AM (#23018524)
> Superior writing skills are one of two things that separate novice developers from experts.

This has been an area of concern for me. As I've increased my technical skills, I feel like my writing skills have atrophied, which impacts communication with my team and management.

As such, I found these tips very helpful.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by austincheney on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:22AM (#23018784)
I think a common mistake many developers, or any early writer in other disciplines, make is not reflecting on this as you are. Knowing and accepting this as a personal weakness puts you ahead of your peers who may have a similar weakness.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by invisiblerobot on Thursday April 30, 2020 @08:04PM (#23037737)
Well written.

Two excellent books are The Elements of Style and On Writing Well.

Re:Good writing is a business advantage by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:26PM (#23023114)
Could you recommend a good book or resource that covers these topics?
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by filipsch on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:34PM (#23023204)
“On Writing Well” by William Zinsser is a title that covers some items on the list, although it’s general for writing non-fiction. It taught me to get rid of the fluff in sentences to make my writing more compelling.
Re:Good writing is a business advantage by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @03:37PM (#23023243)
Thank you for the suggestion. I will check it out.