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Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by Animats on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:34PM (#23013468)
This was approached all wrong. The first highly publicized demos of singing generated like this should have been of dead people - Michael Jackson, John Lennon, Elvis. First, it's not clear who has the right to sue, and in what jurisdiction. Rights associated with those people have been transferred and resold enough times that there's no clear claimant. Second, many people have impersonated those voices, so there's a strong argument that this is just automating a manual process. Someone could have probably gotten a few tracks out the door and onto airplay before the first litigation.

Going up against a living performer whose main asset is their vocal style makes a weaker case. Living people have stronger publicity rights than the estates of dead ones. This could result in a decision which expands the scope of copyright. One of those weird copyright decisions, like the one where Owens-Corning trademarked PINK, as a color, for insulation. Coloring insulation was so unusual that it was held to be a valid trademark. Now there are other copyright on colors. Bad cases make bad law.

This thing has been botched so badly that one wonders if it's a fake case from the music industry to get a losing decision.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by hjb on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:50PM (#23013577)
> One of those weird copyright decisions, like the one where Owens-Corning trademarked PINK

Trademarks and copyright are NOT the same thing. That trademark would only give them rights to the branding PINK in the context of insulation. Copyright is more expansive - and I think you should be more worried about copyright than trademark.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by Animats on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:17PM (#23013779)
Right, PINK is a trademark of Owens-Corning, associated with licensed copyright rights from the use of The Pink Panther cartoon character in some long-forgotten ads.[1][2]

[1] https://www.owenscorning.com/copyright [2] https://youtu.be/C5uM-QwKgW4

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by ineedasername on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:03PM (#23013688)
>Rights associated with those people have been transferred and resold enough times that there's no clear claimant

That doesn't really matter. Anyone who held any piece of the rights could submit to YouTube for a take down, and YouTube will do it. They don't go very far in trying to figure out the legitimacy of a claim, and any rights holder will be good enough for them.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by OrgNet on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:40PM (#23013511)
dead people's copyrighted work sues for copyright issues all the time... not sure how that would help.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by searchableguy on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:51AM (#23016181)
Can someone explain to me how copyright being valid after the original owner's death progresses healthy competition? What benefit does it have?
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by icebraining on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @07:07AM (#23017801)
People work not just on their own behalf, but also of their descendants. Knowing that your spouse or kids will keep getting royalties provides an extra incentive to produce new work, much like people create businesses or make investments to leave as inheritance.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by OrgNet on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:46PM (#23026322)
how often does it profit large corporations and not their descendants?
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by icebraining on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:43PM (#23032925)
Rarely; it usually profits either both or neither.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by someguyorother on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @10:49AM (#23019927)
It doesn't; it's just there because Disney has enough power to make it so.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by rocqua on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @08:26AM (#23018247)
It incentivizes artists to create art, because their work will support their heirs.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by OrgNet on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @10:50AM (#23019931)
"... support their heirs"

, but often some large corporations

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by em-bee on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:02PM (#23013672)
if you see a new video with elvis presley today, you know it's not really him. the chances of mistaken identiy is low.

if the person is still alive then people might believe it's an original and the impersonated can legitimately claim that the fake is profiting from that mistaken identity.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by ineedasername on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:06PM (#23013705)
Mistaken identity doesn't come into play here. It's copyright that got the videos removed, not publicity rights.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by Reelin on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:58PM (#23014446)
The point is that copyright doesn't apply to someone's image or likeness - that's trademark! Copyright only applies to a work itself (at least in the US).

A deepfake Elvis video of a song that he didn't write would be subject to copyright by the original author of the song and to trademark by the owner of Elvis's likeness. However, it seems plausible that such a trademark claim might fail because (among other things) it should be apparent to a viewer that it isn't actually Elvis.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by colechristensen on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:01PM (#23013658)
Deepfakes (a better term is needed) are by their nature derivative works, which copyright already handles with the original's owner retaining rights which have to be acquired. I have absolutely no problem with it. If you don't own the copyright to your entire training data set, you are infringing by publishing something the model produces as I see it.

The courts or the legislature are going to have to address how your rights to your own image being synthesized like this, but again, I have no problem with someone retaining the same sorts of original ownership rights when it comes to derivative works that use data collected from them, beyond just who owns the copyright to the works in the dataset. (voice, video, images, etc.)

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by akersten on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:14PM (#23014539)
> If you don't own the copyright to your entire training data set, you are infringing by publishing something the model produces as I see it.

Imagine if that were true - a human artist couldn't create anything, because everything in the world around them is their training set!

I think it has to be a likeness test - if an average person would think its a real Jay-Z music video, then it's a derivative work. Don't muddy it with the implementation details of how it was made.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by colechristensen on Thursday April 30, 2020 @05:54PM (#23036626)
A human isn't a machine. What is in your head is sacred to the law. A neural network algorithm and its data is not.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by Reelin on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @09:53PM (#23014417)
> If you don't own the copyright to your entire training data set, you are infringing by publishing something the model produces as I see it.

I suspect that would be an absolutely terrible standard in practice. I realize you specifically have deepfakes in mind, but consider that in more general terms those are outputs from a machine learning algorithm. Such outputs will inevitably fall on a continuum regarding the degree to which they resemble a distinctive art style, voice, personality, or other metric.

It seems unreasonable to me that it should be illegal to use arbitrary input data to train a NLP translation model or an image classifier. Farther along the spectrum of outputs, style transfer GANs don't seem like they should be a violation of the law. Should TWDNE really be against the law to host? (https://www.thiswaifudoesnotexist.net/) According to your proposed standard, it would be.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by irjustin on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:44PM (#23013972)
I agree with deepfakes are derivatives. You're using the likeness of someone whether visual or audio to highlight work. People pay attention because of that likeness. Weird Al asks for permission, video games have to pay royalties. So JayZ should have been asked permission in that sense.

If this was a parody, that could probably be argued very differently. Not sure where this particular case falls legally.

I don't agree with if you don't own the copyright you are infringing by publishing something the model produces. It should be tied back to the likeness of the original source.

The argument would be - if I never used any copyrighted JayZ sources (talking in a public setting, not giving a speech) and produced a deepfake, provably so, that would prevent me from being sued by JayZ & co?

Ideally no, because I'm still using his likeness to promote something.

Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by gnopgnip on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:47PM (#23015108)
Copyright only protects the written implementation, not ideas or likenesses. The amount of protection a likeness gets varies a lot more between states, it is a different set of laws, and outside of advertisements or defamation it often is not protected at all.
Re:With questionable copyright claim, Jay-Z orders deepfake ... by gnopgnip on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:54PM (#23014776)
Whether or not something is a derivative, or it is a new transformative work is is legally transformative in a lot more cases than you would expect. Cariou v. Prince page 4 and 5 is the most famous example, and even this minimal change is legally transformative. https://cyber.harvard.edu/people/tfisher/cx/2013_Cariou.pdf