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Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by mwcampbell on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:26PM (#23010792)
I think that's a very simplistic view of ethics. Most things are not that black and white. Proprietary licensing is the most successful funding model we've found so far for software. And that funding doesn't just make some people rich (though it certainly does that); it also pays for lots of developers to do things that often don't get done in less well-funded projects. Yes, some vendors abuse the power that proprietary licensing gives them, but not all do. So I think this specific issue is a lot less clear-cut than you and other free-software advocates make it out to be.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:42PM (#23010964)
I reject any argument which justifies behavior because it makes someone money that they otherwise might not. Captalism does not justify a lack of ethics.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by mwcampbell on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:51PM (#23011087)
I think you might have misunderstood my argument. My main argument is that the money from selling proprietary licenses also pays lots of developers to work on important things, which they wouldn't (often couldn't) do if they weren't getting paid for it. So the users of the software are better off because the developers were able to do important work and get paid for it. And that was only possible because the vendor could be highly confident of getting enough return on its investment to justify paying those developers. And the vendor could only get such a return on its investment because it's selling proprietary licenses, as opposed to selling an auxiliary service (which often leads to misaligned incentives for end-user software) or begging for donations.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:54PM (#23011121)
Don't forget that (and this has been mentioned four times now in this thread) you can sell open source software. No need to beg for donations. Charge for the software and for the source code.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by mwcampbell on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:07PM (#23011275)
But then as soon as a paying customer exercises freedom 2 and helps their neighbors by redistributing the software on the Internet, the vendor is most likely screwed. Particularly if they developed a great piece of end-user software that doesn't need support, training, hosting, or any other service to go with it.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:12PM (#23011336)
Has this ever been shown to happen in practice? The vendor is the only one who can provide a guarantee that the distribution is genuine (i.e. not tampered with), provide timely updates, security notices, etc.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by metaobserver on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:03PM (#23011219)
Your premise is wrong: there is nothing unethical about closed-source software. In 99% of the cases users want great software, great customer support and don't care about the source. If they really do, they can often sign an NDA and buy it. And that's fair. Free market doesn't need a pseudo-ethical middle-man.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by bscphil on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @08:37PM (#23013922)
I think you might have replied to the wrong comment, because this response makes no sense. ddevault said:

> I reject any argument which justifies behavior because it makes someone money that they otherwise might not. Captalism does not justify a lack of ethics.

ddevault's point is that the mere fact that doing P makes someone money is irrelevant to whether it's ethically okay to do P. ddevault does not say whether closed source software is unethical or not (in this comment), and so your "premise" does not exist here.

Furthermore, you go on to make exactly the mistake ddevault is complaining about: "there is nothing unethical about closed-source software." Why? Because "[the customers are willing to pay for it]". The fact that there are people willing to pay for something is irrelevant; the fact that there's a market for hitmen doesn't make that acceptable either.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by JoshTriplett on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:36PM (#23010899)
While that's true, you're not going to convince anyone with that statement who didn't already agree with you; it's not a productive comment, and it's not one that invites discussion or "what to do about it".

By contrast, several top comments here are pointing out how it's counterproductive to do this kind of license enforcement, and that it introduces fragility. Someone pointing that out, and then throwing in an "or you could use Open Source, where you don't have to worry about this at all, and this kind of enforcement makes that an increasingly compelling alternative", is going to get a lot more traction than just a blanket statement that will not change any minds.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by kube-system on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:41AM (#23015444)
Who says this has to be implemented in a closed source application? And it’s hardly licensing that enables closed source applications... it’s compilers that do that. :)
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by koolba on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:13PM (#23010646)
There’s plenty of reason for end user software to be closed source. The biggest one is so that it can exist. Plenty of software would not be written if someone was not paid to do it. And plenty of those would not be paid if the source was available.

If you disagree, vote with your wallet.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by freedomben on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:47PM (#23011020)
Minor nit, open source != free as in beer. In FSF philosophy it's not wrong to charge money. It is wrong not to include the source with the customer's purchase.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by niij on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @11:36PM (#23015049)
I love open source software and use it everyday, so this question is coming from genuine curiosity. I'm a bit conflicted about how I feel above the "ethical" argument for OSS.

Why is closed source software unethical? Is it unethical for McDonald's to sell me a Big Mac, even though they won't provide the recipe for the secret sauce (yes I know it's Thousand Island dressing)?

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by TheDong on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @02:15AM (#23015987)
A closer real-world analogy is "is it unethical for john deere to sell a tractor that you're not able to service due to artificial restrictions".

But the McDonalds one sorta holds up too. Let's examine the 4 freedoms:

1. Freedom to eat the food you purchased using any utensils (freedom 0)

2. Freedom to modify the food (i.e. add ketchup or hot sauce) and study it (investigate the ingredients in it, i.e. ask how much sodium is in it, or if the oil it was cooked in was meat oil).

3. Freedom to share an unmodified piece of the food with others (give a friend some fries)

4. Freedom to share the food, even if you've modified it or attempted to copy it (give your friend fries with ketchup on it, freedom to share your home-made fries modeled after McDs with a friend).

It's arguable if "provide the recipe" needs to be included in those freedoms. Maybe. Either way, I'd argue that yes, it's unethical for macdonalds to sell you food without at the very least giving you the above freedoms, and also telling you all important ingredients in it (allergens and nutritional info, etc)

The reason people aren't complaining about freedom wrt food is because the freedoms are already mostly there. Software licensing commonly requires things like "you can't use this software without an active internet connection to verify you purchased it", or "you can't install it on two computers". I've yet to find a food that has a limitation of "you can only eat this food if you're on the phone with us so we can verify you're not putting ketchup on it".

If food was restricted in the same ways software is, I would call it unethical, yes. Selling mystery food with no ingredient list, that I'm not allowed to attempt to make my own variant of, that I can't add any additional ingredients to, and that I can't eat at my leisure.. yeah, that would be either unethical or a form of performance art.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by freedomben on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:02AM (#23015207)
It's a great question, and I wish I had more time to delve into it. It really comes down to how a person defines their ethics.

FSF philosophy (which I love but am not 100% in sync with) is detailed here: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html

Discussion around why proprietary software is unethical: https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary.html

A lot of it ties into theories around power dynamics as well. When you deny someone the freedom to see what is running on their machine, you put the developer/company in an unfair position of power over the user. We have seen that abused time and again for spying purposes and data collection, for example.

Anyway, interesting stuff. I'll try to come back when I get some time.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by jimktrains2 on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:15PM (#23010675)
> If you disagree, vote with your wallet.

That only works if you have the option to. The vast majority of the time you don't.

Edit: Perhaps I'm being misunderstood? I mean that there very often no equivalent, or even near equivalent option, for you to choose between. As an example, I cannot pay extra for a "smart" consumer electronic, including car infotainment systems, with no proprietary bits and with access to the source.

Even "smart" phones which can have their bootloader's unlocked, which isn't a huge portion, don't provide access to the proprietary bits needed to compile your own AOSP system. However, I'm calling out phones separately as there are a few, nascent nearly fully open source options.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:14PM (#23010669)
No one is entitled to a business model. If you can't exist without being ethically sound, then you can't exist - period. Capitalism is not a replacement for ethics.

And in any case: you can sell open-source software.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by DrJokepu on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:26PM (#23010786)
Nobody is entitled to my labor either.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:54PM (#23011115)
Correct. But we are entitled to the source code for programs which run on our computers, or is paid for by our taxes.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by koolba on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:08PM (#23011296)
> Correct. But we are entitled to the source code for programs which run on our computers, ...

No you're not. If you want the source code for the programs to run on your computer either write them yourself, choose FOSS ones, or pay someone to write one that supplies the source.

Nobody is mandating you buy a particular piece of software or run it on your computer. You're choosing to do it. If you decide you're not going to run closed source software that's your personal choice.

> ... or is paid for by our taxes.

That's moving goal posts.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by renewiltord on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:13PM (#23011347)
Haha, I know that Sourcehut is open-source and you derive revenue from the fact that people prefer to use it as a SaaS product, but it is amusing that the SaaS-ness of it means that your statement only applies to the front-end portion.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:32PM (#23011590)
The SourceHut backend is also open source. A related idea is "if you're handling my data, I'm entitled to view the code which is doing so".
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by renewiltord on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @05:34PM (#23012380)
Right, right, I know. It's just the style of what you said was amusing, not your actual practice, which is consistent.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by smabie on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @12:20AM (#23015319)
Why are we entitled to it?
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:37PM (#23010909)
And in any case: you can sell open-source software.

Do you do that?

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:38PM (#23010918)
Yes.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @04:19AM (#23016746)
That's interesting, I could only see services on your web site. What software do you sell?
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by metaobserver on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:46PM (#23011005)
No one is entitled to free software and should not expect others to slave off and give away fruits of their hard work for free. This entitled communist mentality is unethical.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:48PM (#23011031)
It's my computer, not yours. If you want to run software on it, I get to see the source code, that's the deal. We could agree that I can't use your software under these terms, but this would exploit those who don't understand the value of the source code. This is how spyware is born. If it runs on my machine, it's open source, or it's bunk.

And, once again, you can sell open source software.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by metaobserver on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:21PM (#23011432)
If it's sandboxed and accesses only the resources (network, disk etc.) you explicitly allow it to, you don't need to know how the processing is done. Spyware is not born out of legally obtained closed-source software. It's born out of corporations selling centralized SaaS, infringing on users' privacy and locking them in by design. The very same corporations championing OSS big time, because it benefits their spyware business. With thousands of naive contributors slaving off for posterity and hope that they will get noticed and hired. How ethical is that?

Granted, if you sign an NDA and pay extra, you may have the source. If this is the model you suggest, I think it's fair.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ptx on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @06:12PM (#23012764)
Software that can't access my resources is usually not going to be very useful. If it does get access, I have to trust it with my data, so it needs to be trustworthy. Sandboxing doesn't solve the problem.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by jayshua on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:01PM (#23011199)
If two people, in full understanding of the value of source code, both decide for one to provide a proprietary closed-source software and the other to run it in exchange for money - is it still unethical?
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by ddevault on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:02PM (#23011211)
I don't understand your question.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by jayshua on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @04:14PM (#23011356)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point then. I got from your posts roughly: It is unethical for end-user software to be closed source, everyone is fundamentally entitled to the source code for programs they run on their computer. Further, if an end-user decides not to run the closed-source software, it is still unethical because many people don't understand the value of source code and they are still being exploited when they purchase/run the software.

My question: Is it still unethical if the exchange and use of proprietary software is made only between people who fully understand the value of source code and decide to anyway?

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by TheDong on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @01:09PM (#23021554)
It's a potentially unethical situation at the very least.

If the person running that software asks for the source code, it would be unethical to withhold it from them. However, from the arrangement you made, it would also be unethical for the person to exercise that entitlement which they previously agreed to give up. Two unethical actions don't make a right, so you're just setting yourself up for an unethical situation all around. Better to just make it clear the source code's available on request from the beginning.

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by akerl_ on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @07:43PM (#23013534)
If I choose to make software and publish binaries on a website without the source, how is that action unethical?

Does it become unethical if somebody downloads and runs it? Or only if I suggest it might be worth downloading and running? Or if I ask for money in exchange for it?

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by sova on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:25PM (#23010774)
One problem with this maxim is that all nefarious code would also be open-sourced. Would you really want every subversive tool also openly available? One could argue that the inner workings of a car engine or music box are "closed source," yet there is no imperative on releasing detailed schematics with every unit.
Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by JoshTriplett on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:39PM (#23010932)
> One problem with this maxim is that all nefarious code would also be open-sourced. Would you really want every subversive tool also openly available?

Yes, of course. Every last one of them. That will make such tools more usable by people who actually need them, and more understandable by those defending against them.

> One could argue that the inner workings of a car engine or music box are "closed source," yet there is no imperative on releasing detailed schematics with every unit.

If everyone could carry around a machinists shop and universal manufacturing facility they way they can carry around a laptop, there'd be a lot more demand for such schematics. (And there is already such demand among groups of hobbyists and enthusiasts in those areas.)

Re:Show HN: Add license key verification to your apps by sova on Wednesday April 29, 2020 @09:09AM (#23018640)
The only way to enforce such a scheme is fascism -- immediately negating all freedoms won thereby