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Re:Shirt Without Stripes by albertzeyer on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:16PM (#22926678)
Why should it not be possible to solve this with statistical methods? The model just needs to be able to understand the important meaning of "no" in here, in the context of the whole sentence. I would guess that most modern NNs from the NLP area (Transformer or LSTM) would be able to correctly differentiate the meaning. The problem is, I think there is no fancy NN (yet) behind Google search, and the other web searches.

To extend on that, you can think of the human brain as just another (powerful) statistical model.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by animalCrax0rz on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:28PM (#22926788)
"there is no evidence of cancer" and "there is evidence of no cancer" are two different statements with different meaning, so it's more complex a task than just understanding the importance of "no" in a sentence. It's involves semantic analysis of the sentence. The paper I linked to below describes a technique they call "deep parsing." Check it out for more context.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by pbhjpbhj on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:43PM (#22928956)
Lexical analysis is surely clever enough to make "no evidence" and "no cancer" the atoms used and should even differentiate "no cancer" from "no, cancer" pretty easily? Are we really still at 80s chatbot level functionality when it comes to string parsing?

Related aside: It frustrates me no end that spellcheck still doesn't appear to use any probablistic considerations, like Markov chains, to determine the intended word. And that when I click the next to last letter to make an adjustment it doesn't then change the suggestions to alternate endings, etc.. Perhaps newer devices than I have do this.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by zerd on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:32PM (#22929531)
The general problem is much harder than that. You need to understand double negatives, when do they invert the meaning and when do they underline it? "Ain't nobody got time for that" can be interpreted in different ways. And then you need to understand sarcasm. Then a later sentence can invert the meaning of an earlier one. E.g. "This is the best movie ever. Said no one". Using word-pairs as features is easy, but there are just so many exceptions and ambiguity it's a very difficult problem to solve well.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by _bxg1 on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:26PM (#22930030)
It gets even harder than that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winograd_Schema_Challenge

For example:

"The city councilmen refused the demonstrators a permit because they advocated violence."

Which party is "they"? There is no lexical information that can possibly answer this question. It depends entirely on an actual understanding of what "city councilmen" and "demonstrators" (in the context of city councilmen and permits!) are, and which one would be more likely to be advocating violence (and in which case that would lead to a permit denial).

Background: Until recently I worked at a symbolic AI company who was tackling this problem. I myself didn't work on this problem directly, but I became 100% convinced that their approach, while a long shot, was the only conceivable way of solving it in a fully generalized way.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by eezurr on Monday April 20, 2020 @11:22PM (#22931524)
Another fun sentence is "I never said she stole my money". It has 7 different meanings depending on which word is stressed/emphasized. Was about to type it all but DDG'd this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/64ae8h/i...

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by chx on Monday April 20, 2020 @09:27PM (#22930909)
It gets even worse: "The city councilmen refused the demonstrators a permit because they advocated peace." the meaning of this sentence in 1968 is different than in 2020!
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by 6510 on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:28PM (#22931228)
And then there are those who are able to say things that [intentionally] have different meaning to different audience members.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by animalCrax0rz on Monday April 20, 2020 @09:43PM (#22931014)
Totally. The general problem is indeed difficult to solve, but I've seen lots of great work in this area.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by dhimes on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:33PM (#22926834)
While it was an interesting point, it doesn't seem completely applicable here. Presumably the classifications include context. "A shirt with no stripes" should be distinguishable from "a stripes with no shirt" in the this context.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by atq2119 on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:10PM (#22927224)
This is true, but isn't really that relevant to the parent's point about statistical methods. Statistical methods (and "deep learning" is such a method) could certainly take the order of words in a sentence into account, for example.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by animalCrax0rz on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:16PM (#22927291)
Which part of "The paper I linked to below describes a technique they call "deep parsing." Check it out for more context." could you not parse?

I mean if us humans have a difficulty parsing each other's statements, then why should machines do any better?

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by atq2119 on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:41PM (#22929624)
None. I was merely pointing out that your comment wasn't a response to albertzeyer's point about statistical methods. That is to say, maybe you didn't parse their comment properly ;)
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by animalCrax0rz on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:28PM (#22930065)
Nope, I was simply countering that it's not as simple as they suggested. I added the link to the paper to show one approach to given them some context as to what might it look like.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by WillPostForFood on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:00PM (#22928488)
The number of humans that would have difficulty parsing "shirt without stripes" is very very low.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by animalCrax0rz on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:13PM (#22928646)
I keep trying to talk about the general problem and people keep focusing on this one example. I give up. :)
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by londt8 on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:37PM (#22926883)
I tried to search for "cheese without holes" on Google and it yielded good results. I think the problem here is that the query is something people would rarely search.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by jjnoakes on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:43PM (#22926948)
I just searched google images for "cheese" and "cheese without holes" and I got roughly the same results (about 1/3 of the images had holes in both cases).
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by Miraste on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:13PM (#22927252)
"pictures" and "pictures without color" show that it does get some of these, although not the way I expected.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by derivativethrow on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:53PM (#22927051)
If that's the case that's a big problem, because human children are trivially capable of both formulating and understanding uncommon sentences which still make sense.

It might be hard to come up with examples on the spot, but in everyday life you will routinely come across things you need to refer to by negation which are relatively uncommon.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by derefr on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:24PM (#22927407)
Human children are also capable of walking, but it’s one of the hardest problems in robotics. Things brains can do intuitively, they can do because they have millions of years of evolution behind them.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by im3w1l on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:45PM (#22928978)
Of the things the human brain does, I wouldn't say walking is very interesting.

The most amazing property in my opinion is the fact that it trains itself. (Whereas neural networks are trained by external systems).

I suspect it's related to imprinting. To take the example of filial imprinting, the brain must have some hardcoded notion of what a parent looks like. Then this is used to to build a parent detector, and the hardcoded notion is thereafter discarded. Then the newly learnt parent detector is used in reinforcement learning (near parent = good). Keep in mind that this all happens just after birth or hatching, before the visual centres of the brain have had any chance to train.

Really cool stuff.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by worik on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:53PM (#22927052)
THat will be your search bubble. You clearly prefer Stilton or Chedder to Emmental cheese
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by albertzeyer on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:38PM (#22927569)
Yes, sure, exactly. It's a complex task. I'm just saying that there is no reason why a statistical model should not be able to solve the task. And you seem to agree on that. You even linked such a method.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by animalCrax0rz on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:11PM (#22927968)
Yes, I was just countering that it’s more involved than recognizing the importance of “no” in a sentence.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by BickNowstrom on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:42PM (#22930197)
> Why should it not be possible to solve this with statistical methods?

Doing just that for 10 years, beating hand-coded systems: https://www-nlp.stanford.edu/pubs/SocherLinNgManning_ICML201... [pdf]

> I would guess that most modern NNs from the NLP area (Transformer or LSTM) would be able to correctly differentiate the meaning.

Yes. See demos like: https://demo.allennlp.org/constituency-parsing/MTczNjYyNA== and https://demo.allennlp.org/dependency-parsing/MTczNjYyNg==

> I think there is no fancy NN (yet) behind Google search,

During the deep learning boom, Google made a huge push towards NN-based NLP. SEO's and their PR calls their efforts collectively RankBrain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RankBrain

I think we are on the cusp of combining symbolical/logical operations over the vectors produced by Neural Networks (or at least, major effort there). Could be by neatly tying up all these different NN-based NLP modules (parsing, semantic distance, knowledge bases, ...) with another set of decision layers stacked on top.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by DenisM on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:20PM (#22928066)
This very question was the subject of a lengthy debate between Norvig and Chomsky. I won't rehash it here, but here's a glimpse:

Chomsky: Statistical analysis of snowflakes falling outside the window may predict the next snowflake, but it will do very little for weather prediction, and nothing for climate analysis.

Norvig: Give us enough data and we will get close enough for all practical purposes.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by hammock on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:25PM (#22928110)
This kind of reminds me of the plot of the current season on Westworld (no spoilers). The amount of data needed to really have "enough data" is often not practical, therefore (ironically) never letting you apply it "for practical purposes."
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by rhizome on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:54PM (#22927781)
>The model just needs to be able to understand the important meaning of "no" in here, in the context of the whole sentence

It's easy to say, isn't it? Unfortunately, sticking the word "just" in there doesn't affect the difficulty. I do it all the time, too.

That said, "meaning" is not statistical.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by waltpad on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:15PM (#22929345)
> That said, "meaning" is not statistical.

Are you sure of that? After all, we don't have all the same interpretation for every word in the dictionary. Ask a hundred person in the street - well perhaps not these days - the meaning of the word "meaning", how many different explanations will you get? And will you be able to reduce them all to the same "fundamental" meaning?

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by hammock on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:27PM (#22928134)
Why is it hard? Honestly. Add a "t" to "no" and you get a basic Boolean query.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by gnulinux on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:42PM (#22928947)
Boolean queries aren't statistically analyzed; they're parsed and algebraically evaluate. So your point seems to support the opposite thing you're supporting.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by hammock on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:32PM (#22929522)
Yeah I don't really know how github works. When I click the OP link I see a tiny bit of text and then three screenshots. Is there a whole article on this topic I'm missing?
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by ScoutOrgo on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:58PM (#22928470)
The OP most likely isn't up to date on latest NN architectures which can learn from the ordering of words. Statistical methods <> ML, not anymore in NLP.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by melenaboija on Monday April 20, 2020 @08:51PM (#22930673)
I guess it depends on what you mean with statistical methods but as you said "not anymore in NLP" then yes, statistical methods are in NLP. Both language models and transformers use statistics to predict.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by lonelappde on Monday April 20, 2020 @08:56PM (#22930713)
Statistical linguistics is older than modern neural nets. Google itself promoted its research into same.