Are we reading the same HN threads on this page? I'm seeing people who I don't consider to be stupid, who obviously have some Linux knowledge, still advocating that user accounts are a waste of time for most desktops.
If anyone is smart enough and knows enough about Spectre/Meltdown to understand the risks they're taking, they are also smart enough to search online how to disable the kernel protections. The commands aren't hard to find.
If anyone is not smart enough find that information online for themselves, they also don't have enough knowledge to make an informed decision about whether or not it's safe for them to run.
In both cases, there is value in forcing users to display a modicum of knowledge about even just the fact that Spectre/Meltdown exist before we give them a command to run that turns off an important security setting. Anyone who knows anything about Spectre/Meltdown already knows that the mitigations affect performance. They should already know what to search for online without the aid of no-context commands being pasted at the top of HN.
A fool isn't necessarily stupid: plenty of people have knowledge yet terrible judgement.
If anyone is smart enough and knows enough about Spectre/Meltdown to understand the risks they're taking, they are also smart enough to search online how to disable the kernel protections. The commands aren't hard to find.
If anyone is not smart enough find that information online for themselves, they also don't have enough knowledge to make an informed decision about whether or not it's safe for them to run.
In both cases, there is value in forcing users to display a modicum of knowledge about even just the fact that Spectre/Meltdown exist before we give them a command to run that turns off an important security setting. Anyone who knows anything about Spectre/Meltdown already knows that the mitigations affect performance. They should already know what to search for online without the aid of no-context commands being pasted at the top of HN.
You're considering it as advice, when really it should be considered more like a doi.
Then I'm not sure why you disagree with my criticism - I'm claiming that this page appeals to people who have knowledge in this matter but have not done the deep thinking to have wisdom in this matter. There are plenty of smart people who find "Make X Y again" for other values of X and Y appealing.
This all might be a bit too much serious thought for what was intended as a joke initially (the site, not my comments), though.
I mean, phones and tablets do fine without any user-like abstraction. You can sandbox apps without having a concept of multitenancy.
I'm not sure what you mean by "concept of multitenancy," but if you want to "sandbox apps," you cannot let side-channel attacks break that sandbox.
I'm not seeing people here arguing that Linux could get by with only supporting 1 user account. I'm seeing people argue that the biggest reason they avoid running as root is just because userland applications complain about it. It's very difficult to do sandboxing if there isn't some kind of differentiation between a privileged and unprivileged process.
Regardless, Linux also doesn't really have good sandboxing by default, so I'm not completely sure what you're getting at. It's still a bad idea for people to run a Linux system as root.
I disagree. Most users do not understand how speculative side channels work or how they might be affected; many people's experience with Meltdown and Spectre is "my games got slower because of some magical speculative stuff that I don't really understand". Making an informed decision on this is hard.
Leave the HN bubble and go to an average Linux forum. You would be surprised what kind of advise people give or what people are willing to copy and paste into their terminal ;).
This is not meant as a criticism. Most people, including many Linux users, just use their computer as a tool and will just do anything to get it running as they want.
There's a case to be made for gaming, and the mitigations if I remember correctly definitely ding performance on quite a few games, but because most computers used for games have significant amounts of sensitive information on them, among other things, I don't think it really holds well.
Benchmarks (I really dislike linking to this site, but given it did a bunch of benchmarks, it's not the worst thing, I guess):
'Up to 50% performance loss!' is obviously clickbait, and I disagree with a lot of the wording & conclusions & so on, but there's definitely some workloads where the trade-off makes sense.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-42...
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-42...
Warning about those benchmarks, though: they're of a rather old kernel version, I imagine they tank performance less now. However, given that 5x has been performing way worse to my knowledge than 4x, 4x is probably what most people would be using for these sorts of things.
EDIT, added section below:
Ah, here we go; how it's effecting modern stuff:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=spectre-...
The mitigations ding it a reasonable amount for a substantial amount of workloads, though it's not as intense as it used to be.
Also, may I ask why you dislike Phoronix? I personally enjoy their articles and the benchmark suite they have developed seems very well-rounded and transparent. I wouldn't count the statement concerning the ~50% increase in time it takes to complete a certain task on 4.20 as clickbait, considering it was never used in the linked articles title to hock readers and gain clicks.
Honestly, I have yet to see a large and popular enough use-case that allows for a both completely air gapped system, whilst also heavily benefiting from disabling mitigation to such an extent, that an admin couldn't just lock up the flags required. If I, as an admin, made the conscious choice of going so far as to disable these patches, I would also want to at least re-read whether this is truly significantly advantageous, rather than copying a line from a website with no context or further information on the current state and impact on performance.
However, I would very much not advise doing so, as I still am unaware of any task that can both, be done without the need for a network connection, while also being significantly slowed down by the mitigations, after recent improvements to the kernel and software. Basically, the potential benefit is very low in a lot of tasks, whilst requiring additional security measures (ideally fully air-gapped) and that you reboot the system every time you'd do such a task.
Also note that, in theory, just being temporarily offline may not shield from being exploited fully.