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Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:46PM (#22807811)
"This improves the stock value for investors"

Not really. A stock buyback is essentially the same thing as the company parking the money in the bank. It's almost the same financial thing. Shareholders 'own' the $1 in the company's bank, or they 'own' it if it's paid back to shareholders.

Stock buybacks or dividend payouts should basically have a null effect on the value of the company. They are kind of 'neutral' exercises.

Edit: 'null value' obviously taking into consideration fewer shares, i.e. if the company buys shares from the market at market prices, it shouldn't directly affect the value of the other shares it's financially neutral.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by throwawayjava on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:55PM (#22807891)
Only if you assume perfect liquidity and either 1) a constant or monotonically increasing stock price or else 2) a huge cash reserve such that selling stock at basement prices or taking out highly leveraged loans is never necessary.

If a company parks $1 in a treasury bond during good times, they have that $1 + approximately inflation in bad times.

If a company buys back their stock at $N and then has to sell a large amount of stock at $M for M << N (or take a leveraged loan), then the company is only getting fractions on the dollar of that original $1.

Unfortunately, the scenarios where huge companies really need cash now pretty well overlap with the scenarios where there are huge liquidity shocks and crashing equities prices. Such as a financial crisis or a pandemic.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jschwartzi on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:04PM (#22807988)
Maybe the companies in question should save money instead of expecting the American people to bail them out in these situations. Every single financial crisis in recent memory has the same core group of companies not saving money and needing the government's help. Yet when it comes time to help individuals in need the government suddenly wants means testing and byzantine rules around who gets the help and how quickly it can come. Trickle down economics don't work. They just coat the economy in varnish.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jariel on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @01:08AM (#22810245)
No, not really.

If every business had to consider every possible risk scenario (WW3?) then nothing would function. We need a kind of 'insurance' that nobody else will provide. The government is well-positioned to do that if they do it responsibly.

These companies are generally not getting free money - they are getting loans, or in some cases the gov. is getting equity. The government could have actually made a profit were they to have held their auto-bailouts a little longer.

The reality is, Auto Companies cannot prepare for an 'apocalypse' in an adjacent, much bigger market - banking.

Credit is the right thing to do to keep that system going, again the government did loose a few billion, but it was small in the grand scheme, moreover, they should have broken even.

There are quite a few social programs provided by gov for individuals, moreover, those are 'freebies'. The gov is not taking a chunk of 'ownership of you' and they're generally not extending loans.

Banks also paid back their loans, the sneaky thing there was when the Fed allowed banks to dump mortgages on them at face value - which was a 'bailout' of banks and home-owners.

Of all the things that drive unfairness and inequality - these are not them. These are generally good bits of intervention.

Low-interest rates that drive massive home inflation is a primary driver of inequality. Lack of some kind of socialized medicine. Lack of reasonable healthcare regulations. Garbage public schools in some areas. Prison Industrial Complex. These are much more obvious areas for reform.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:01PM (#22807962)
Of course - I'm not denying that 'stock buybacks' have a strategic impetus, of course they do.

Every financial decision does.

I'm saying that the popular notion of 'stock buybacks' as somehow a 'windfall' for investors is just not really true at all.

The notions that some individual investors are literally selling their stock, but instead of to some other party but the company itself, is not a big deal.

Stock buybacks are a rational and normal part of financial operations not some 'special win' for investors as some of the rhetoric implies.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jessaustin on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:44PM (#22808271)
They aren't a "special win" in general. When they occur a month before a downturn that generates a bailout, they are.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:26PM (#22808578)
Even a 'month before' some unforeseen event, it's not a 'special win'. It's barely a special win in any event.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by iso947 on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:22PM (#22808085)
Aren’t $1k of dividends taxed more than $1k or capital gains?
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by clairity on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:01PM (#22807957)
stock buybacks are rarely perfectly neutral for all shareholders. it's essentially a forced reinvestment in the same company, which is good for shareholders who believe the company is undervalued and already hold stock. dividends allow you to diversify right away, but have greater tax implications.

the repurchased stock can also be held or destroyed on buyback, which affects the timing of the benefits.

and lastly, buybacks are primarily useful to executives for their signaling value (e.g., luring less sophisticated investors into buying).

the benefits are not uniform to every shareholder, especially through time.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:19PM (#22808063)
it's essentially a forced reinvestment in the same company, which is good for shareholders who believe the company is undervalued and already hold stock.

How is it a "forced reinvestment"? Buyback requires two parties to the transaction, the company is buying shares, but someone has to sell them. This can be you. It would be forced reinvestment if the company just kept cash and never returned it either through buyback or dividend, which incidentally is what most people grinding against airline stock buybacks seem to be suggesting.

Really, stock buybacks and dividends are mostly equivalent, with the exception of the tax treatment, which is the whole reason why companies increasingly prefer the buyback route.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by dmurray on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:47PM (#22808718)
Instead of buybacks being a "forced reinvestment", it would be more accurate to say dividends are a forced divestment. If the company spends $1/share on buybacks and you hold 100 shares, you can either keep the shares or sell $100 worth and get cash instead. If the company gave you a $1/share dividend, you couldn't use that to buy $100 worth of stock, because taxes.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by clairity on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:28PM (#22808135)
not every shareholder participates in the decision-making behind a buyback, and in some cases they can't all participate in the buyback itself (especially with majority privately-held entities).
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:37PM (#22808210)
We are talking about publicly traded companies here. You can always participate in the buyback: just sell your shares, they're publicly traded, so there should be no difficulty. It doesn't matter much who's on the other side of your trade, as the arbitrageurs will ensure that the buyback is priced into the spot price.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by clairity on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:44PM (#22808274)
many companies have multiple types of stock, and only publicly trade a portion of their shares (i.e., not treasury stock) and often only certain classes of their stock. sometimes they trade less than half of the total shares, which is how you can have majority privately-held companies trading shares publicly.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by d1zzy on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:33PM (#22808621)
Also, to avoid insider trading issues, companies restrict the times in which shares are allowed to be traded by employees.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jessaustin on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:41PM (#22808247)
Please tell us you're not a corporate accountant. Cash is an asset, and is the definition of "liquid". Shares are not. Excessive dividends prior to a downturn would be just as dumb as excessive stock buybacks.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by kdamica on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:50PM (#22807842)
A buyback has the added effect of reducing the number of shares, increasing their Earnings per Share (EPS). Since EPS is a widely-used metric for valuing a company, it's not quite the same as a dividend.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:34PM (#22808634)
In a 'perfect' buyback which was spread across all investors equally -> it's neutral. (Percentage ownership remains the same, cash was transferred to investors)

That it won't ever exactly happen that way means some will win/lose depending on their individual situation, but it should be something approaching a wash on average.

Again - stock buybacks are not 'windfalls' for investors it's just a normal part of financial operation.

The question of how much cash on hand certain businesses should have to have ... is a separate issue.

If the government wants to regulate this like they do banks, well, that's an idea, but I don't think it's the best one, but spurning businesses because they did a buyback last year and are otherwise operating normally is definitely not the right approach.

Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by smabie on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @10:22PM (#22809485)
EPS isn't used to value a company, it's used to value the price of a single share.
Re:Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund far... by JaimeThompson on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:54PM (#22807882)
If it was essentially the same as putting the money in the bank then they should be able to use that stock to keep themselves going instead of getting a bailout. But that will not work because their stocks are down so much.