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Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by Apocryphon on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @03:07AM (#22800980)
The article carefully points out VC funding receding even before the pandemic, which is simply accelerating what was already trending. Reminiscent of how 9/11 and its aftershocks sped up the dot-com bubble popping, which had already been in motion.

The examples of "fake tech", startups assuming easy entry into markets due to mass adoption of internet computing (via smartphones) and then running into fundamental problems with their business models, and the valuations based on creative accounting also sound familiar.

This really is the dot-com bubble 2.0, isn't it.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by K0SM0S on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @03:19AM (#22801033)
What little I know of history has indeed convinced me that major ordeals are quite often the logical conclusion of small or past things unaddressed, gone out of proportion. "Bubbles" are such a thing. Real "black swans" are incredibly rare; and this (CODID-19 pandemic) isn't one.

Indeed, the current dotcom situation is a bubble, and it was long due. Meanwhile, let's hope investors become better at identifying real value, real innovation, real game changers. It's often the boring stuff.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by sanedigital on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @03:46AM (#22801167)
You don’t think having almost every major metropolitan area in the world under some degree of reduced economic activity for 1-3 months qualifies as a Black Swan event? What does, then?
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by L_226 on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:14AM (#22801905)
In the US at least, this crisis and the administration's response takes the form of a "Grey Rhino". Something you can see coming, but you need to _act now_ to do something about it or be at its mercy.

From the website of the woman who coined the term - Michele Wucker [0]:

""" A “gray rhino” is a highly probable, high impact yet neglected threat: kin to both the elephant in the room and the improbable and unforeseeable black swan. Gray rhinos are not random surprises, but occur after a series of warnings and visible evidence. The bursting of the housing bubble in 2008, the devastating aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and other natural disasters, the new digital technologies that upended the media world, the fall of the Soviet Union…all were evident well in advance. """

[0] https://www.wucker.com/writing/the-gray-rhino/

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by davidkopf on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:45AM (#22802047)
Here is Nassim Taleb, who invented the term explain it is not a black swan: https://youtu.be/lBjVTm7F1lQ
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by mettamage on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @03:54AM (#22801218)
Is it a Black Swann? This event was in the possibility space of epidimiologists. I don't have a source unfortunately, but it's findable.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by kortilla on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:05AM (#22801555)
Nuclear bombs being launched at all major US cities simultaneously was just as much a possibility as a global pandemic for quite some time. It doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t have been a black swan event.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by GarrisonPrime on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:13AM (#22802163)
A pandemic is virtually guaranteed to happen every so often.

And if a nuclear war broke out, that'd hardly be unexpected or random.

"Black Swan" does not mearly mean "unique and significant". The unpredictability of a black swan event is the main cause of concern, as it doesn't allow for much preparation.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by kortilla on Thursday April 09, 2020 @06:02PM (#22827670)
Yes, nuclear war would be very unexpected/random. Every war always is. It is no different than the pandemic or any other black swan event.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @04:28AM (#22801385)
That it was in the realm of possibility doesn't make it not a 'black swan'. Black swans by definition are possible.

COVID-19 is unequivocally a Black Swan.

Hopefully, we get a CDC 'mini Army' like Korea/Taiwan have so this doesn't happen again.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by kelnos on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:28AM (#22801968)
That's a bit of a contradiction. If something is not in the realm of possibility, then it is impossible, and thus cannot (in a strict, logical sense) happen. If we were to define a black swan event as something "not in the realm of possibility" then there would literally never be a black swan event, ever... because things that are not in the realm of possibility do not happen, full stop.

So yes, as you say, a black swan event is allowed to be something that is in the realm of possibility. But it has to be improbable. And it has to be something unforeseeable by people knowledgeable in the field. COVID-19 does not pass either of those tests; it definitely is not a black swan event.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by OrangeMango on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @09:34AM (#22803039)
Exactly.

A pandemic scenario was modeled/tested just last year [1]. Some participating states appear to have learned from it, other not so much.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Contagion

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:23PM (#22804630)
This is ultra cherry-picking.

'Some guy, somewhere predicted the 2008 crash, therefore, it should have been obvious'

People have been running 'pandemic' simulations forever, this is not a new idea.

There are multitudes of catastrophic scenarios we could face.

Pandemics that break out at this level are probably 'once in several generations' (at least pre-full globalization) which implies effective 'Black Swan'.

The next pandemic may be in 20 or 200 years, nobody knows, hence 'Black Swan'.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by blaser-waffle on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @01:03PM (#22805085)
Ultra cherry picking? Did you even read the wiki article?

It was a study that lasted for months and involved the US Fed Gov plus 12 states. This isn't one talking head spouting their pet theories on their blog, then later turned out to be correct.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @01:22PM (#22805304)
Every major calamity was predicted by someone (or group) on some level, with relevant credentials.

The US military runs China-US engagement scenarios all the time, of a variety of flavours i.e. S. China sea flare-up, Tawian invasions etc. You know we are running Europe/WW3/Russian nuclear standoff drills and simulations - all the time, right? Any one of those scenarios is very unlikely to happen, but somewhere in the world, something similar will happen.

The Fed and large banks constantly 'stress testing' and producing models for relatively unpredictable things?

Insurance companies are constantly doing fairly complex modelling built with really good data?

And academia is rife with all of those activities.

After the 2008 crises, there would have been an easy handful of individuals of credibility who were predicting much of what happened. Dot-com crash. 9/11. Saddam's Invasion of Iraq. If there's any likelihood at all of something happening, someone is talking about it in a meaningful way.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:20PM (#22804597)
"And it has to be something unforeseeable by people knowledgeable in the field"

No - this is not true at all.

1) All of the major economic calamities were 'predicted by someone' in the field.

2) Black Swans are 'improbable' - which COVID absolutely is.

"According to Taleb, black swans are events that emerge unpredictably, like a tornado, from a fat-tailed statistical distribution."

What we are seeing is point-blank exemplary of 'Black Swan'.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by kelnos on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:29AM (#22887951)
After reading a bit more about Taleb's definition, I don't really agree or disagree with you. I now think it's actually easy to argue both that COVID-19 is and is not a black swan event, given the (likely intentional) ambiguity of the definition, which is more like a heuristic than a definition.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by mettamage on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @10:25AM (#22803465)
I agree with this definition. From my understanding, when the whole idea of a Black Swann was offered, people genuinely didn't believe they would exist, or it would be so improbably that they would be super surprised.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by TeMPOraL on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:40AM (#22801728)
> Hopefully, we get a CDC 'mini Army' like Korea/Taiwan have so this doesn't happen again.

The difficult part isn't getting a 'mini Army' after a crisis, it's keeping it until the next crisis, against all the beancounters that will soon swoop down and try to optimize it away.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by jariel on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:26PM (#22804653)
Yes, absolutely.

But this time, there is a) political impetus and b) economic calculus.

The plebes will 'vote' for this now, it's something ingrained into an entire generation now.

Banks, regulators, government - they all have crystal clear economic justification.

Large financial institutions, definitely insurance, funds etc. will now integrate all of this into their calculus. So even 'big business' will be on board.

Large banks will pressure governments that don't have a Pandemic Response time.

The elite and plebes are now on board with the 'Pandemic Army' so I suggest it will exist in some, more meaningful fashion.

It might not be 'the best' but it will exist.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by taneq on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @08:25AM (#22802520)
Exactly. Like any preventative maintenance, when it's working it looks like you don't need it. People are terrible at remembering this without a shakeup every now and then.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by charwalker on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:47PM (#22804863)
Money/debt is still very cheap but hopefully the starry eyed VC groups are finally recognizing that not everything can grow exponentially with linear costs, not even true tech companies. Everything is reliant upon everything else at varying levels of complexity and complication. If you go all in on 10 things, all 10 can still fail hard or break even long enough to bury your investment.

Though at the moment there must be some neat online only systems being stood up by devs sheltering at home.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by smcl on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:10AM (#22801587)
It is and in truth I had given up on HN accepting the idea of a coming bust years ago. Any time I read a comment questioning the quantities of money being thrown around, the dubious value of some investments or asking how long this can last it was usually downvoted to oblivion or dismissed with plenty of "people have predicted a downturn for N years and it's still not happened!"

Yet here we are. I'm quite sure some who genuinely believe the coming recession is purely due to Covid-19 and not an inevitability that has been years in the making. I don't know what I would say to those people, I think they might be beyond convincing.

Anyway after a couple of painful years I'm sure we'll be able to watch the recovery and the beginnings of the next boom/bust cycle unfold right here on HN.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by grey-area on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:18AM (#22802187)
The slowdown started prior to covid-19, however it will be interesting to see how the overlay of the bursting of the huge post-2008 asset bubble personified by wework and a natural disaster which simply stops the global economy cold for a few months works out. One may obscure the other.

We may find markets and economies bounce back relatively quickly (within a year) because the perception of danger has passed.

All the normal rules of monetary and fiscal policy have been thrown out, and assets may well be inflated again in short order by the truly astounding levels of money pouring into the system across the globe. The US government is actually employing the helicopter money concept people used to joke about. We live in interesting times.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by Mirioron on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @09:08AM (#22802821)
I think that as far as internet businesses are concerned, they're going to recover quickly and become stronger than ever. Social distancing is showing a lot of people the usefulness of the internet and I think that this is going to create a larger market in the future since more people are willing to rely on services provided online.
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by Apocryphon on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:55PM (#22804976)
Isn't there some sort of limit to the Fed's endless free money printing machine? Doesn't inflation or some other negative consequence kick in eventually?
Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by grey-area on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @02:38PM (#22806091)
You would think so yes. Normally this might trigger a crisis of confidence and sharp inflation but a) the rest of the world is doing it too, b) the USD is the world's reserve currency, c) we may suffer deflation due to the recession and fall in demand if it is long lasting.

It's hard to predict the consequences.

Re:Exit unicorns, pursued by bears by darepublic on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:40AM (#22802017)
You mean people are going to stop paying me six figures to write HTML. Oh no.