News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by scarface74 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @04:47PM (#22781396)
You weren’t around in 2000 or 2008 were you? Your startup is only in “better shape” as long as VCs are willing to keep funding you. VCs are only willing to keep funding you if they have confidence that you will have a profitable exit.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by Spooky23 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:20PM (#22782968)
“Better” in that you still exist.

A friend’s medical practice will implode April 30... their business is down 90% and they won’t be able to pay rent or the employees. They are only staying open in hope for some sort of aid or debt jubilee. The partners will lose pretty much everything.

People with cash aren’t going to keep plowing money into startups, they are going to buy depressed assets. Every leveraged real estate company will be broke in 90 days or less.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by lifeisstillgood on Sunday April 05, 2020 @03:55AM (#22784387)
Governments (like the UK here) are trying to borrow then lend money to business like that so that at the other end of this, they can just return to normal.

But honestly I think it's too complex to attempt. Perhaps some form of managed debt jubilee will work "no rent for six months" or something. but the unintended consequences will be huge.

Good luck to your friend

Edit: we should probably focus on the areas that can be easier made whole - finding landlords with extant contracts and just paying them for the contract will be easier than getting their tenants paid, finding businesses with employment contracts easier than paying individuals...

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by JimTheMan on Saturday April 04, 2020 @10:26PM (#22783245)
Out of curiosity, would you be able to elaborate on the type of practice?

I wouldn't imagine they are a GP? This crisis would increase their traffic. Cosmetic surgery?

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:30AM (#22783741)
This crisis is hitting medical practices incredibly hard, given that all non-emergency procedures are canceled (by law where I live). You seem to be implying by saying "cosmetic surgery" that it's just personal, cash-pay procedures, but that's totally wrong. Primary care, pediatrics, radiology, sports medicine, dermatology, on and on - they're all getting killed by this.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by JimTheMan on Sunday April 05, 2020 @10:31PM (#22790446)
Just trying to have it make sense in my head. Surprised primary care numbers are down. Had that in my head as essential.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by mikeyouse on Saturday April 04, 2020 @11:20PM (#22783489)
Shelter in place means shelter in place -- almost all non-essential procedures have stopped, where "essential" has varying degrees of severity depending on where they are. I personally know of cardiology, oncology, and internal medicine groups who have basically cut their businesses by 90% to keep people at home. It's not safe for their staff or for other patients to continue normal operations.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by postingawayonhn on Saturday April 04, 2020 @11:28PM (#22783524)
At least where I am (Australia/New Zealand) I have been hearing that GP visits are way down. I think people are trying to avoid the health system as much as possible and are therefore putting off any appointments that are not critical.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by lobster45 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @10:50PM (#22783368)
We have a dentist friend that had to close her office. She is not able to get a loan and this is her business
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by Spooky23 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @02:21AM (#22784099)
Oral surgeon.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by eriktrautman on Saturday April 04, 2020 @07:33PM (#22782388)
The poster said 'better shape' not 'good shape'. A biz that's dead in X months of runway is still in better shape than one that's dead in a week.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by foobiekr on Sunday April 05, 2020 @02:02AM (#22784043)
Too many people haven't lived through hard times. They think that rules exist and they know what the rules are. The other day I was describing to a friend who has a company that will need funding in about 6 months, in a conversation where I was imploring him to cut his burn rate, about how things can go.

In 2001, VCs actually pulled back investments from startups. People think that once cash is in the bank it's theirs.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by 0x0001 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:09PM (#22781550)
Not all startups require VC capital, some of us are just running without venture funding just clients money, some startups are in better shape because are on right market on the right time. You just need to be in the right time.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by wlesieutre on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:30PM (#22781693)
> some of us are just running without venture funding just clients money

That sort of startup probably also counts as a “traditional small businesses.”

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by estreeper on Saturday April 04, 2020 @07:31PM (#22782372)
Receiving investment, or not, or making money, or not, has nothing to do with whether or not a company is a "startup" (at least in the YC sense).

Startup = Growth

http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by pjc50 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:00PM (#22781893)
Right now, client funding is extremely vulnerable. The startup I was working for in 2001 blew up when clients stopped paying bills due to their own bankruptcy. The one I was working for in 2008 was badly crippled by all the clients we were pre-sales engaged with simply closing their external purchasing.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by markmark on Saturday April 04, 2020 @10:46PM (#22783348)
This is the thing I've seen a lot of tech people missing, they are all "I'll be fine, my company already works from home and our business isn't effected". Yes, but what about your customers businesses? What if they stop paying? Or what about _their_ customers. The entire economy is going to be hit hard, and that will ripple through.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by cinquemb on Saturday April 04, 2020 @10:54PM (#22783385)
I think startups that cater to providing services to government funded organizations will probably do better, especially with all this new government debt globally in the form of "stimulus".
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by itronitron on Sunday April 05, 2020 @05:30AM (#22784699)
I don't expect that will turn out to be the case as funding will be reallocated across various government programs in an extreme manner. The impact of Hurricane Katrina on DHS programs is a comparatively small example of what can happen after an event like this.

Companies large enough to serve multiple different organizations may be able to re-balance their services.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by markmark on Sunday April 05, 2020 @03:43AM (#22784343)
Yeah I have a friend who works for a small company (although not a startup) that provides essential services to the government, we think he's as safe as anyone.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by scarface74 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:17PM (#22781585)
And you’re probably not looking for a large exit. You are trying that unheard of concept of spending less than you make. What you are doing is running a “lifestyle business”.

That’s not a negative despite what the tech bro’s think. I hate the idea of success for a company seems to be “we got another round of funding while losing money”.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by hodgesrm on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:01PM (#22781900)
The term "lifestyle business" really annoys me. It's Silicon Valley propaganda. There are better ways to build companies than taking hundreds of millions or billions in funding. Pre-crisis startup funding was largely decadence enabled by cheap money.

By contrast early generation SV companies took relatively small amounts of funding if at all. Intel for example took the equivalent of $18.4M US in 2019 dollars prior to IPO. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#Origins

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by hef19898 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @03:38AM (#22784327)
I gave that a lot of thought lately. Not that I wanted to, but being a one-man bootstrapped startup kind of let to it.

And with all the stories coming out of Berlin's scene, and to a lesser degree Munich's, I came to the conclusion: "lifestyle businesses" businesses without external funding are hard. They are traditional small companies, the have to rely on positive cash flow, profitability and banks to keep running. Quite tough, especially if the founder and employees have to actually live from the profits.

Startups on the other hand, they life of VC money. As long as the founding team can sell their vision to VCs to get more VC money, they run just fine. So the founders can live the startup life with other people's money. Sounds more like lifestyle businesses to me.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by ghaff on Saturday April 04, 2020 @07:05PM (#22782226)
The thing that annoys me about "lifestyle business" is that it also suggests this idea of short days, tons of vacation, etc. Which is usually not the case.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by brianwawok on Saturday April 04, 2020 @08:02PM (#22782543)
Honestly I think it’s a way for those that owe million to VCs to feel like they have one over us businesses that grew at a healthy pace, have money in the bank, and money in the bank goes up not down every month.

At least that is how lifestyle business is slung here. No one in my local business association would scoff at businesses growing at a healthy pace and no debt. Also nice if no VC gives me another round, I don’t have to shut down tomorrow.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by ghaff on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:17PM (#22782958)
Yes. However it can also be pitched as there's no big upside and the salary is so-so but it's a "lifestyle business" even though the hours and other time-off are nothing to write home about.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by qes on Sunday April 05, 2020 @02:36PM (#22787425)
I'm the CTO of a "lifestyle" business, though we don't really call ourselves that. Salaries here are excellent for our area (MN). Time-off is better than average, and we have free worldwide flights for vacations as a perk. Highly flexible work hours and location - we have some FTE's 100% remote, living in other states; I'm 90% remote. No overtime culture, no death marches. Maybe every 2-3 years we have a couple weeks of a good crunch but it's with buy-in from everyone doing the crunch.

We're lucky to have a customer base that spans many industries. We've lost some chunks of income.. chains of malls closing, restaurants, lobbies, DMV offices, customers getting live sports info.. but it's all temporary and we're well in the black. Instead of worrying if we'll make it we're looking for opportunities and how we can best take advantage of our strong position.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by ghaff on Sunday April 05, 2020 @06:38PM (#22789323)
That sounds great. A lot of the time "lifestyle" businesses for the owners (in the sense of control, no outside investors, etc.) doesn't trickle down to the employees in any meaningful way though.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by ClumsyPilot on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:53PM (#22783103)
I feel the phase means something different entirely - let's say I start a software consultancy with my friends, and my goals are to run the firm how I want, be my own boss and that we have fun working on interesting projects together. That to me is a lifestyle business.

If there is a profitable decision I could take, like investment / partners / whatever, I prioritise the fact that I want to keep running this company myself without interference over profit. I prioritise my job satisfaction.

Maybe I could hire a more competent CEO, but that's not what I am trying to do here. I could get a mentor thou.

This business could be funded by debt, or investment, though not normally.

Now I might make a lot of money and grow the firm to 10k people, or I might take long holidays and go bankrupt - that's a different problem entirely.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by vl on Saturday April 04, 2020 @07:13PM (#22782274)
> Pre-crisis startup funding was largely decadence enabled by cheap money.

Arguably with current rates we are going to have cheapest money ever possible. On top of that a lot of traditional investment vehicles are contracting.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by hodgesrm on Saturday April 04, 2020 @10:48PM (#22783357)
It's a fair point but I think that the key issue is different. VC funds are a kind of equity investment; the question is whether they are actually delivering results. In the case of some of the top-notch US funds I would guess the answer is yes and will continue to be so.

On the other hand large funds like SoftBank are clearly under-performing. Cracks in that model were already appearing prior to Covid-19. So yes, interest rates are low, and equities should benefit in general. However it does not follow that VC investment funds are overall a good bet. To make that argument you would have to trade off against alternatives like real estate, more traditional industries, on-shoring of supply chains, etc.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by rmason on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:29PM (#22781678)
When you raise money it's not a win, it's an obligation

- Mark Cuban

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by twic on Saturday April 04, 2020 @07:34PM (#22782391)
That's not a lifestyle business, it's just a business.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by ClumsyPilot on Saturday April 04, 2020 @09:44PM (#22783078)
Not necessarily, a startup could be boot strapped by founders themselves, and they might prefer to keep it a closely held operation with minimal third parties adding pressures. They might still be looking to cash out, just on different terms.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by ElFitz on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:30PM (#22781696)
It's only a lifestyle business if they aren't interested in hyper-growth & all

Otherwise, "just" spending less than you make and trying to make it on their own only makes them bootstrapped, don't you think?

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by scarface74 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:36PM (#22781737)
Its hard to find investors if you aren’t interested in hyper growth. The financial risk that the company will go out of business is the same but the expected returns are a lot lower. That just doesn’t make sense from an investors standpoint from a risk/reward vantage point.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by burrows on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:34PM (#22782092)
Raising too much money can increase likelihood of bankruptcy. fight me
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by dnautics on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:52PM (#22781838)
there's a big gulf between "lifestyle" and "SV big startup", like startups that aims for 1.25-2x growth per annum, has taken fewer rounds of funding. There's several of them in SV, too.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by sambull on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:21PM (#22781617)
But for a whole summer I didn't pay for a ride share app.. thanks VCs!
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by grey-area on Sunday April 05, 2020 @01:40AM (#22783975)
Sounds more like a 'business' to me.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by asveikau on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:29PM (#22781686)
> just clients money

And I imagine some of those clients may have money problems resulting from the crisis too, directly or indirectly. Nobody is totally isolated.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by filmgirlcw on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:29PM (#22781687)
Absolutely true — but the GP point about startups being “better prepared” because they already have runway and expect zero revenues (an opinion I wholly disagree with), doesn’t apply if the startup doesn’t have funding. As you say, a lot of this is about timing (and I’ll add, luck plays a massive role here too).
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by vikramkr on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:41PM (#22782124)
That's just a small business - the comment above is referring to companies with a huge VC cash raise in the bank and "runway" as being in a better position than companies like yours that rely on cash flow from customers
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by Natsu on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:14PM (#22781568)
I think startups will adapt in time. I mean, I'm surprised there aren't TP-finding apps right now...
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by WalterSear on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:35PM (#22781729)
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by cvhashim on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:08PM (#22781945)
Don’t wanna be pedantic but a small tech-based business isn’t really a startup.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by vikramkr on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:38PM (#22782113)
Yeah, that's just a small business without any of that claimed cushion of a huge vc raise
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by filmgirlcw on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:41PM (#22781773)
Not to mention VCs becoming more risk averse — not wanting to throw good money after bad. So not only does it need to be a profitable exit, it needs to be profitable at a good multiplier compared to every other business seeking investment.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by hpcjoe on Saturday April 04, 2020 @08:46PM (#22782767)
VCs were always 'risk' averse, though this manifested in odd behaviors. Such as the herd signal, whereby one investor decided to invest attracted more capital.

One might argue that the signal indicated lower risk, but this runs at odds with the mission to find potentially large payoffs. That is, derisk enough, and you de-reward. Add to that, that there is no "sure thing", or ultimate de-risk. There are no silver bullets in this process, and signals you think may indicate one thing, actually indicate something entirely different.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by tpurves on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:49PM (#22786642)
This. I was in a fintech/payments startup that actually survived the initial 2000 tech crash... had found product-maket fit and were closing major customer deals with Banks . But we still substantially cash flow negative (payment networks are great scale economy business but take time to ramp) and in process to raise another ~18 month runway... when sept 11 hit. After which all funders dried up. Years later, that same product we built did become hugely successful, under new ownership. This after the startup was sold in a firesale and all founder/employee equity was wiped out and everyone laid off. Not that unusual a story in startup land, but one were going to see more of this year. Weak business as well as viable ones, all thrown out with the bathwater when a severe economic shock hits.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by 0xff00ffee on Saturday April 04, 2020 @06:31PM (#22782076)
RIP The Pets Dot COM sock puppet. I was there to see him live fast and die hard. (I don't acknowledge his zombification.)
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by da02 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @10:09PM (#22783178)
Did you work for pets.com?
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by canada_dry on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:32PM (#22781709)
> as long as VCs are willing to keep funding you

The markets present an even more compelling opportunity for high risk return at the moment.

I'd argue that VCs (being opportunists at heart) are very likely to redirect funds and shun startups for a while e.g. likely as long as post tech bubble timeframe.

Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by jussij on Saturday April 04, 2020 @07:43PM (#22782439)
I suspect the fact the Dow Jones is also feeling strong downward pressure, that too will not be helping in the confidence of those same VCs.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by kirstenbirgit on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:17PM (#22781587)
I'd say only 0.1% of startups have a VC attached.
Re:Startups are pummeled in the ‘great unwinding’ by scarface74 on Saturday April 04, 2020 @05:20PM (#22781606)
How many companies are running with no VC funding that fit the profile of the parent poster?

“By our very nature, we need months of runway just to keep running. We're designed to weather this kind of storm because "zero revenue" is the default state.”