Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad

Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by _bxg1 on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:37PM (#22771083)

Apple in 2020 is such a weird thing. Some of the things they produce - mostly in the software realm, I guess - have really careless and egregious bugs and design problems. But then they still come out and make amazing little features like this one that nobody thought to ask for, and don't get highly publicized, but really speak to that classic detail-oriented Apple mindset.

It's like there's a huge cultural schism running through the middle of the company, or something.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by pengaru on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:55PM (#22772184)

> they still come out and make amazing little features like this one that nobody thought to ask for

Privacy/security-conscious computer users have been asking for user-controlled hardware switches on such peripherals from the moment they were shipped integrated into the device.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by pc86 on Friday April 03, 2020 @02:07PM (#22772309)

> Privacy/security-conscious computer users

So, in the grand scheme of things, "nobody" is an accurate description. Most people don't care about a hardware disconnect for their microphone, even if they should.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by _bxg1 on Friday April 03, 2020 @02:31PM (#22772565)

Right, and Apple isn't a niche hyper-secure laptop company, they just (sometimes) put good features in their mainstream products that their customers may not even know they want.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by zionic on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:46PM (#22771231)

Is it too much to ask for a small LED next to each camera indicating if the sensor is powered? Should be standard on every phone.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by artiscode on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:59PM (#22771437)

Ditto. Or even an old-school LED that indicates data transmission like the HDD LED in old computer cases. Make it in hardware so that if any data is sent through the wire, it lights up.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by kick on Friday April 03, 2020 @02:39PM (#22772659)

HDD LED in old computer cases

Old? I'll admit I haven't changed my case in a couple years, but mine currently has one, and I can't remember the last time I've used a desktop computer that didn't have one.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by notRobot on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:47PM (#22773298)

old, adj: Having lived or existed for a relatively long time;

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/old

Old doesn't have to mean extinct :)

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by robin_reala on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:10PM (#22772965)

Unfortunately those were immediately susceptible to tempest attacks, at least at old hard drive speeds.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by angry_octet on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:56PM (#22773362)

I think you are confusing this with data tx/rx lights for exfil[0]? I've never heard of a tempest attack (that is, revealing the data written via a side channel) on a hard drive light.

[0] Guri et al, LED-it-GO

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1702.06715.pdf

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by robin_reala on Friday April 03, 2020 @04:19PM (#22773559)

I think it’s this paper I remember that describes it as an “optical tempest” and talks about storage mechanism leakage: http://applied-math.org/acm_optical_tempest.pdf

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by angry_octet on Friday April 03, 2020 @05:51PM (#22774278)

Yeah it's type II in the Loughry schema. Still unfortunate if you're operating a high security air gapped network, but not squirting out secrets without being compromised first.

It seems almost quaint to worry about this when so much software has web spyware baked into it -- but maybe we need a virtual spyware led that lights up every time something talks to Facebook/Google/etc tracking. The light would be blinking non-stop for many people.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by iNate2000 on Friday April 03, 2020 @08:55PM (#22775323)

It would just never go out.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by jachee on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:09PM (#22771587)

People already complain about the price and battery life of current phones. I can’t imagine either of those things making either situation better.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by dandelany on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:38PM (#22771982)

You can get SMD 0603 LEDs that use ~1mA of power for a few pennies in bulk. Peanuts compared to the power usage and price of the rest of the phone.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by rimlicker on Friday April 03, 2020 @02:08PM (#22772316)

yeah that LED cost is going to drive my 1400 phone price up through the roof

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by behnamoh on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:20PM (#22771734)

Or maybe an icon in the status bar indicating the camera being in use.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by hultner on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:36PM (#22771969)

Having it in the status bar would defeat the purpose as ill behaving actors could possibly circumvent this, having it in the hardware as a led would make this if not impossible most likely infeasible. I’ve only heard one instance where someone were able to go around the led and if I recall correctly that was on the old PowerBook and required physical access to flash the firmware on the camera hardware module with custom malicious firmware.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by dnh44 on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:25PM (#22771796)

You can get that functionality with Microsnitch. It works for the microphone too.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by ashton314 on Friday April 03, 2020 @02:40PM (#22772678)

I use MicroSnitch on my mac and love it. I just need it for the iPhone. It doesn't exist, does it?

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by dnh44 on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#22772943)

No but it sounds like a good idea. I suspect it would require a jailbreak though.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by sixothree on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:30PM (#22773145)

I never understood how an expensive device like a camera was added to literally every laptop in existence without any option to remove (save for a few). I can only think manufacturers were pressured.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by naravara on Friday April 03, 2020 @03:40PM (#22773229)

Supply chain/production complexity. It's more expensive for them to make the option customizable than it is to ship it for everyone. If there was an appreciable market for consumer-level camera-less machines the math to justify it might look different but there isn't. The vast VAST majority of the demand for hardware without cameras comes from the NatSec type people, and they're all doing bulk orders so they get more leverage to have niche production runs done for them. And even then they don't always get devices without the cameras. They end up having to do awkward things like physically disabling the hardware after the fact or locking out the functionality with custom firmware.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by sixothree on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:56PM (#22817046)

Before laptop makers started adding them en masse, there very much was an appreciable market for camera-less machines.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by naravara on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @06:18PM (#22817817)

I find that pretty far fetched. I'd need to see some actual data on that that isn't explained by the commodity parts getting cheaper to be convinced.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by Shorel on Friday April 03, 2020 @08:51PM (#22775302)

Because before laptops included cameras we used to buy Logitech USB cameras to attach to our laptops.

I still have mine, and sadly it only produces 640x480 images, and everything looks too dark compared to the camera that is now included in the laptop.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by jonny_eh on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:18PM (#22771709)

It's a company with multiple people making multiple decisions each day. It shouldn't be surprising that there's variation in quality, just like at any other company.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by _bxg1 on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:20PM (#22771741)

But what I see is a gargantuan drop-off. A much wider range of variation than you'd normally expect, and mostly partitioned to different segments of the business.

Painting with broad strokes, Microsoft's products are fairly consistently "fine". Lately perhaps they've skewed towards "pretty good". But generally you know what you're going to get. Whereas Apple's products can be anywhere from unparalleled to embarrassing.

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Re:Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad by plussed_reader on Friday April 03, 2020 @01:58PM (#22772214)

I've always attributed that user-tradition as a Jobs byproduct; he was a unifying force for the user experience and that role hasn't been filled since his passing. There are lots of hands involved with many projects, but it feels there's no point-person or champion on this for many years.

From going back to dongle hell of the 90's via USB-C, to the conflicting marketization of the macOS products, the connectors proliferating on the iOS standards(now lightning and USB C!), the conflating of iOS apps into macOS space, dropping magsafe; it doesn't feel very user friendly when you start getting into the details.

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