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Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by chrisseaton on Monday March 30, 2020 @11:29AM (#22728763)
> there’s nothing about this pandemic that’s remotely useful to you

Surely it's a planning consideration for the commanders? I think they get world news so that they can inform their decision if they need to decide for example where they go if they can't contact London.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by arethuza on Monday March 30, 2020 @11:39AM (#22728854)
The rather quaint processes used by the Royal Navy apparently include checking whether BBC Radio 4 is transmitting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by chrisseaton on Monday March 30, 2020 @12:15PM (#22729203)
I guess keeping broadcasting Radio 4 no matter what has very significant priority in Her Majesty's Government's crisis plans. You can use Radio 4 to reach the whole country if needed, with I guess just a few generators.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by soneil on Monday March 30, 2020 @12:41PM (#22729541)
Just for anyone wondering why Radio 4 in particular - it’s the only BBC station we have on Longwave (198? kHz), so you get over-the-horizon service from a single tower. (which is why carries the shipping forecast, and why it’s of particular interest to submarines in the Atlantic too).

So using it as a “sign of civilization” (one of multiple) sounds quaint, but with a perfectly logical reason behind it.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by gruez on Monday March 30, 2020 @03:01PM (#22731107)
Are BBC Radio 4 transmissions cryptographically signed? How do you know whether it's the real BBC radio 4 and not something that the enemy's spoofing?
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by PoachedSausage on Monday March 30, 2020 @04:02PM (#22731730)
They could be cryptographically signed as the BBC Radio 4 LW carrier is phase modulated with a datastream that can be used for remotely controlling electrical equipment [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by Theodores on Monday March 30, 2020 @04:15PM (#22731850)
You can't spoof Radio 4. There are too many tells. The news readers are rarely changed and you know their voices. Those voices are also very English and you can't take English schooling and BBC training overnight. Plus the airwaves. To take out 198 longwave and substitute something else is not so easy.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by Animats on Monday March 30, 2020 @05:06PM (#22732303)
Except that the British succeeded in doing such spoofing in WWII.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspidistra_(transmitter)

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by chrisseaton on Monday March 30, 2020 @05:23PM (#22732421)
That's talking about spoofing someone reading out numbers. You just need a German speaker for that.

The person you're replying to is talking about the impossibility of faking a day of idiomatic BBC Radio 4 broadcasting, and I'm inclined to agree that the individual personalities and programmes are so incredibly ingrained in most British minds and the details are so subtle that you'd have no chance of being convincing.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by Animats on Monday March 30, 2020 @06:55PM (#22733024)
Sefton Delmer, who was behind that, went much further. Listen to this old BBC radio show about it. [1] Start at 30:55 for the intrusion operation. They did replace German radio stations in-place as they shut down due to air raid warnings.

[1] https://ia800108.us.archive.org/9/items/OperationAspidistra/...

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by therein on Monday March 30, 2020 @04:36PM (#22732051)
I am sure deepfakes for radio is even easier to achieve than other media. Not only is it audio-only, but it is also low fidelity audio.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by sgt101 on Monday March 30, 2020 @01:13PM (#22729906)
The funny thing is that The Archers is extremely likely to go off the air in the very near future (they can't record any at the moment and they only have a couple of weeks in the can). Since the availability of The Archers is the key sign of life for the UK we better all pray that the Boomer on duty changes shift soon! (or this whole radio 4 thing is utter bollocks)
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by chrisseaton on Monday March 30, 2020 @01:23PM (#22730012)
Why aren't they recording at home? My understanding was the many of the characters record individually anyway. At least the child actors definitely did, so it must be possible to act and edit together this way. I think cartoons all record individually.

You only need a half-decent microphone.

You could do it on a bad microphone if you wanted!

The Archers is a timeless part of the background noise in many family kitchens in the UK. Seems a shame not to fight through this little piece of calm for normal families in this time of crisis.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by simonw on Monday March 30, 2020 @02:28PM (#22730727)
They're building out home recording capacity right now, and will be recording from home (on a slightly reduced schedule) shortly: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52084510
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by ceejayoz on Monday March 30, 2020 @02:01PM (#22730446)
"amongst other checks"

If BBC4 goes down, but you're still able to call London on a satellite phone, you don't go nuking Russia. If you have a half dozen different signs of nuclear war and BBC4 is down, it's a point in the "well shit" direction.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by soneil on Monday March 30, 2020 @08:14PM (#22733652)
That's it - they don't depend on the BBC. It's more a troubleshooting step. If the light in the kitchen doesn't work, but the one in the living room does, there's something wrong with the kitchen light. If everything's off, there's something wrong with your electricity.

So if Northwood goes silent, but the cricket is uninterupted, there's probably something wrong with Northwood. If everything's gone, there's probably something wrong with your radio. But if Northwood's gone, the BBC's gone, but VOA is still up .. you start wondering if something's wrong with the UK.

(For example. I'm not privy to anything the rest of us aren't. But it's clear that it's an item on a checklist that happens to have some novelty value, rather than being our "systema perimetr".)

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by ceejayoz on Monday March 30, 2020 @11:33AM (#22728806)
The article notes that the commanders are likely aware.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by sgt101 on Monday March 30, 2020 @01:14PM (#22729915)
How? The ULW comms network was decommissioned years ago! How would they know?!
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by ceejayoz on Monday March 30, 2020 @01:27PM (#22730060)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

Radio and satellite comms on the periscopes, among other things.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by tgsovlerkhgsel on Monday March 30, 2020 @01:29PM (#22730073)
Satellites, and surfacing to periscope depth (or enough to otherwise deploy an antenna) at predetermined, randomized and secret intervals?
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by pdonis on Monday March 30, 2020 @03:32PM (#22731426)
The satellites don't have to know when the subs are going to come to antenna depth to receive messages. They just broadcast them continuously, and subs receive them when they decide to.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by mywittyname on Monday March 30, 2020 @04:19PM (#22731878)
An always broadcasting satellite may give away position.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by chrisseaton on Monday March 30, 2020 @06:41PM (#22732945)
People know where satellites are anyway - you can literally see them in the sky. You can't hide them!
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by mywittyname on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:37AM (#22736591)
Obviously tracking an individual satellite would not provide you with any information, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect my comment to mean that.

The major countries all have thousands of merchant vessels traveling in every major shipping lane all over the world. My thinking is navies would be worried about these ships being equipped with sensors that analyze satellite signals looking for what could be intended for submarine communication. Eaves droppers wouldn't even need to break the encryption of the signal, they'd only need to be aware of a signal is being broadcast to only a specific region of the the ocean and that bears other attributes associated with military communication.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by ceejayoz on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:30AM (#22737309)
Simple solution: Don't broadcast to a specific region of the ocean. (HQ may not even know exactly where the sub is, so this is probably necessary anyways.)
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by mywittyname on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:34AM (#22738529)
Or simplest solution: don't broadcast to them at all. Which was the point I was making as to the likely reason they don't do it.

Broadcasting over a larger area reduces the ability of an adversary to infer location from the signal, but increases the likelihood of intercept. That alone might not be terribly useful, but it can be combined with other bits of information and form a more complete picture. For example, if you know when and where the sub was last docked, fleet movements, regional events that are of military interest, and you have a signal with a message you suspect was intended for them, then that's enough bits of information to be useful.

There are trade-offs. If you're required to minimize the the likelihood of discovery at all costs, then it makes sense to never even attempt communication while underway.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by pdonis on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:34AM (#22745724)
> you have a signal with a message you suspect was intended for them

That would require you to be able to decrypt the encrypted signal that the satellite is broadcasting. Which you can't.

All these third party observers see is a bunch of digital noise continuously being broadcast by the satellites. They have no way of telling digital noise destined for a particular sub from the rest of the digital noise. So the signals convey no useful information to them.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by ceejayoz on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @12:37PM (#22739362)
It's common knowledge that we communicate with submarines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

The article confirms this:

> Salles said the situation now will be toughest for any crews that leave harbor in the weeks ahead, because they’ll know they are leaving loved ones in the midst of the pandemic and, possibly, still living in lockdown. The French government has already extended its stay-home orders once, to April 15, and said it could do so again.

> Salles said he believes those crews will get regular coronavirus updates, but won’t be told of any family deaths until they are returning to the l’Ile Longue submarine base, near Brest in Brittany.

Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by ceejayoz on Monday March 30, 2020 @04:28PM (#22731970)
Of the satellite, not the sub, and that's not an issue.
Re:Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic by sgt101 on Monday March 30, 2020 @03:03PM (#22731135)
Risky - home base would have to know, and you know what The Hell's Angels say about secrets...