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Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by partiallypro on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:25PM (#22619027)
Oil is the crazy part to me, I read an article that said oil could technically even go -negative- because the cost to store it would become more expensive than to give it away. With Saudi Arabia pumping, and the economy in a standstill, there is a massive glut. Bonds are selling off, and I don't if it's because people are re-balancing with stocks down so much or if the market is reacting to the likely future of massive bond issuance from the US government.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by paganel on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:51PM (#22619339)
My brother is a lorry driver and has traveled through Southern Germany and Norther France these last two days. He told me that there are almost no cars on the roads apart from other lorries and some police/Gendarmerie cars, and the few photos he sent me seemed to corroborate his sayings. I suspect in Italy there are even fewer cars now circulating, and Spain is probably the same.

So you've definitely got a huge demand-side crisis, and coupled with whatever Saudi Arabia and Russia are trying to do (fighting between themselves or fighting between themselves in order to bring down the US shale companies, I'm never quite sure) that means that the only way is down.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by harlanlewis on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:58PM (#22619419)
Another bit of corroborating evidence for reduced traffic is air quality. The current day over day difference in places like LA (or earlier across China) is dramatic.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by BurningFrog on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:05PM (#22619494)
This adds the millions of US fracking jobs to the already imploding virus unemployment situation.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by r00fus on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:05PM (#22619492)
> fighting between themselves in order to bring down the US shale companies

This is the key. They are cooperating to destroy US efforts at self-sufficiency.

On the bright side, the canals of Venice are clear (you can see the fish) for the first time in recent history.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by matwood on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:25PM (#22619721)
That has little to do with pollution and just that there are no boats churning up the bottom.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by at-fates-hands on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:27PM (#22619744)
> They are cooperating to destroy US efforts at self-sufficiency.

This is completely shocking to me.

I remember complaining about gas when it went above $2 and my grandfather sat me down and related several stories about the 1970's oil crash, Jimmy Carter saying we needed to be energy independent, and other fascinating stories about OPEC.

To honestly see a day where OPEC and the Russians see the US oil production as a threat is pretty incredible when you think about it.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by tomp on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @03:21PM (#22620246)
> They are cooperating to destroy US efforts at self-sufficiency.

That's simply impossible. Best they can do, is bankrupt the current owners of fracking oil wells. But the equipment and sites / wells remain, and will be taken over by new owners, which will remain pumping oil as soon as price reaches sufficient levels (or until the US needs it for "national security").

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by blaser-waffle on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @03:36PM (#22620385)
Foreign firms can operate oil companies in the US.

The new owners may be Saudi...

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by codekilla on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:46PM (#22619917)
> They are cooperating to destroy US efforts at self-sufficiency

This is naive. The real target is Iran, the Saudis would never do this without US approval.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by fulafel on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:09PM (#22619550)
In the global warming discussions there are always lots of people testifying that it's impossible to cut private car use or their world will end, hopefully this will shake those ossified attitudes.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by njarboe on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:26PM (#22619726)
I would think this current crisis would make people even more leery of public transport and cutting car use is not impossible but that it will take a governmental forced lock down and martial law. Maybe we should think about ways of reducing the downsides of individualized transport instead of promoting 19th century solutions (large crowded subways). Electrification, reduction in size, tunnels, etc.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by leethargo on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:43PM (#22619888)
Maybe ony more leery of depending on public transport.

I've stopped using subway last week, and can still run errands by bicycle, i.e., don't need a car. But I also mostly WFH so it's easy, of course.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by njarboe on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @04:17PM (#22620807)
Yes. Biking and walking are also great transit modes depending on the distance, speed, and cargo needs of the trip. Although crowded sidewalks is something to avoid at this moment.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by drewnick on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:40PM (#22619863)
I'm not arguing, but we've cut private car use, and it seems like the world is ending, economically speaking. Hoping this creates habits that are good for climate beyond the immediate disaster. WFH, school changes, etc. Good can come of this in the long run.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by lordnacho on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:28PM (#22619060)
Indeed, it is possible for commodities to go negative, for instance in the electricity market. Saudi decided to have this price war at an interesting time, in the middle of a crash in the rest of the financial market, hence the huge moves were setting now.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by ajross on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:34PM (#22619133)
Saudi and Russia both, really. The first escalated and the latter walked away, which is what caused the crash last week.

But really, it doesn't matter. What was happening at Saudi pumps last week was a speculative event, the size of the petroleum market for the next few months has absolutely nothing to do with OPEC decisions, it's about quarantine restrictions on travel all over the world.

Saudi might continue pumping, but as others are pointing out when the tankers and storage facilities fill up, they'll stop. Because there's nothing else to do.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by gpm on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:36PM (#22619162)
Electricity can go negative because some modes of production are slow and difficult to turn off, so they keep producing and we need somewhere to dump the energy.

It doesn't help that unlike oil electricity is produced in a just in time fashion, we produce it the same second we want to use it, not days or months before hand. I.e. there is nearly no buffer capacity in the supply chain.

Does the same apply to oil? Can we not just turn the pumps off and leave it in the ground with what basically amounts to flipping a switch?

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by asdfadsfgfdda on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:55PM (#22619391)
In America, wind power is given a subsidy of up to 1.9 cents per kWh generated. Because wind has almost zero variable costs, negative electricity prices can still make money for wind producers. Even though wind energy is fast to turn off.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by celticninja on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:03PM (#22619476)
yes you can stop taking it out of the ground. except Russia and Saudi could not agree with one another to do that, so now we have a reduction in demand coupled with no reduction in supply. soon storing that oil will start to be a cost centre. then we will see less demand at the wholesale level combined with price cuts to move existing stock. all of which will ultimately hurt oil producing countries.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by njarboe on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:32PM (#22619787)
They will stop pumping when the price to extract gets too low. To stop pumping does not reduce the amount of oil you will get out of a reservoir to any significant degree and you can start up again with little cost.

The big issue is that if lots of oil companies go bankrupt (many US fracking ones are highly leveraged and must sell oil at a certain price in order to survive) and people get other types of jobs, you can't ramp up the creation of new wells very easily. Oil from fracking takes a lot more effort and wells than the old style wells.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by Analemma_ on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:38PM (#22619189)
We could easily turn the pumps off. The issue is the Saudis aren’t doing that, for geopolitical reasons.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:47PM (#22619291)
> We could easily turn the pumps off

Can one? I don't know enough about oil wells to know if that's a simple thing to do. It could very well do permanent damage to the well, in excess of selling negatively for a few months.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by exhilaration on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:57PM (#22619402)
Only Russia can't completely turn off its pumps, and only during winter. They'll freeze. Besides that case everyone else can do it or simply slow them down as they've done in the past.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by BurningFrog on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:07PM (#22619530)
Will they thaw up and be usable in summer, or does the freezing destroy them?
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by exhilaration on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:35PM (#22619811)
Not destroy exactly, but cause enough damage that it will require extensive repairs. Please note that this what the Russians claimed some years ago as the reason they could not shut down production during a previous disagreement with OPEC so we should take it with a grain of salt.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by scrumbledober on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:54PM (#22619381)
Saudi Arabia is constantly turning on and off different oil wells to manipulate the price of oil. This current crash is in large part due to them turning on all of their pumps.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by w1 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:14PM (#22619595)
Usually, one can, with no ill-effects. Many operators run their marginally economic wells for only a few hours per day already.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by SilasX on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:35PM (#22619138)
I'm just confused at today's drop in long-term government bonds (and thus increase in interest rates) -- normally they go in the opposite direction of the stock market, which is what it's done this year. Vanguard's long-term govt bond ETF (VGLT) is up 13% so far this year:

https://www.ytdreturn.com/vglt/

Edit: rephrase to clarify what I'm confused about

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by gniv on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:43PM (#22619892)
Here's a potential explanation quoted by Matt Levine in his March 13 newsletter:

“The risk in the current environment is that sustained illiquidity of the UST market … could cause leveraged UST investors to reduce their Treasury positions on a large scale. This would essentially result in a Treasury ‘supply shock’ as these funds reduce their positions & force dealers to sell those positions in a very illiquid market. Significant position reduction from one large leveraged UST investor would likely lead to a cascading effect whereby U.S. Treasury yields rise sharply and force liquidations from other similar investors. This would worsen conditions for dealers to intermediate risk in the U.S. Treasury market, exacerbate the rise in U.S. Treasury yields, and further cheapen Treasuries.”

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by SilasX on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:48PM (#22619949)
But haven't the Fed's constant injections (like the recent $0.5/1.5 trillion one) indicated it's going to keep the Treasury market liquid by buying them all up at par?
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by reverend_gonzo on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @03:19PM (#22620231)
One thing that can absolutely be happening is people just pulling money out of whatever assets they have, due to margin calls, risk reduction, etc.

That would explain why all assets are going down.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by thorwasdfasdf on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @04:11PM (#22620746)
High yield muni bonds and other high yield bonds were hit especially hard, now down farther than stocks even.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by OldHand2018 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:43PM (#22619248)
The yield of a bond is inversely related to the price you pay for the bond. The prices are going up, thus the yield is going down.

To be clear: the price you pay to buy a bond is going up while the price you pay to buy a share of stock is going down. It is exactly how you expected, you were just looking at the wrong number.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by SilasX on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:46PM (#22619283)
No, I meant that government bonds today are going down (yield up) while stocks go down. I mentioned the good performance of government bonds YTD as indicative of their normal behavior, i.e. going up (yields down) when stocks go down. I realize now I was phrasing it poorly. Since edited.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by manic85 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:09PM (#22619549)
This is confusing to me too. The best explanation I've heard is that the market is expecting a future increase in bond supply (gov bond issuance to fund coronavirus mitigation measures), which would drive prices down and yields up. This future price pressure is being priced into bonds today.

Bitcoin crashed as well and gold isn't overperforming either. So rather than having a huge transfer of assets from stocks to bonds/gold/bitcoin like we've seen during past periods of market volatility, I think we are seeing falling prices across all the forementioned asset groups.

The one open question for me is Real Estate (I work for a small commercial real estate developer). REITs are down 20%. My contacts in the Broker community have told me individual property sales transactions have dried up due to an inability to do property showings combined with no interest from buyers or sellers to make big moves until things shake out. RE moves slow so we haven't yet seen how this dynamic will impact sales prices.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by SilasX on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:16PM (#22619628)
>This is confusing to me too. The best explanation I've heard is that the market is expecting a future increase in bond supply (gov bond issuance to fund coronavirus mitigation measures), which would drive prices down and yields up. This future price pressure is being priced into bonds today.

Interesting! If so, maybe we could see an end to the financial markets' seemingly insatiable demand for Treasurys?

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by jcfrei on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:44PM (#22619898)
I don't know about the demand side but supply is definitely going up around the world. For the massive stimulus packages in the US and Europe lots of new bonds will be issued by governments. Additionally lots of companies around the world are drawing on their credit lines which means banks need to reduce their treasury holdings for USD. The only question that seems to matter is how high will central banks allow yields to rise?
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by manic85 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:42PM (#22619880)
Hard to say right now, but it's likely that bonds won't go up again until people believe the rate of new bond issuances will go down.

On another note, the federal funds rate is at zero but bank stocks are cratering anyway, possibly because Trump announced there will be no foreclosures/evictions through April. So landlords and homeowners have no incentive to pay their mortgages for a couple months, which will definitely hurt banks.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by OldHand2018 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:00PM (#22619443)
Got it :)

The President mentioned something about wanting to backstop money market funds, so that may be part of what you are seeing.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by pletsch on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:27PM (#22619041)
Canadian oil went below $10. It's insane.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by xchaotic on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:48PM (#22619303)
Lots of people are complaining but to me it shows the market is working - oil goes down because of decreasing demand and I don’t see why it should be otherwise.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by mkagenius on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:28PM (#22619058)
Its weird that country like India has storage capacity of only 40 days. Even if they wanted to store an year worth of cheap oil, they can't.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:03PM (#22619475)
Think about it, you have a resource that powers the world... why would you need to store it?
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by mkagenius on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:27PM (#22619737)
For days like todays, it would have saved them $60B, you don't get cheap oil so easily
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by hangonhn on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:41PM (#22619216)
The US only has capacity for 30ish days... but at US consumption rates.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by _jal on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:51PM (#22619343)
Kind of. It is around 30 days now, but it can't be emptied that fast - I think it takes something like 4 months to draw down the full capacity.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by gpm on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:29PM (#22619071)
Maybe I'm missing something, are there some weird contracts out there that require accepting fresh oil pumped out of the ground? Otherwise it seems like before oil went negative people would just stop accepting more shipments from oil wells and oil wells would be forced to shut down (for lack of places to pump the oil to).
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:57PM (#22619406)
changes in output to the oil rigs / refineries themselves can easily be ramped/up and down, the problem is the industry relies on a complex network of "smaller" offshore construction companies[1] which are not so flexible in the sense that they can just stop without repercussions. They supply a range of services such as inspection, pipe-laying, testing and connecting actual well-heads[2] using ROV's and deep-sea saturation divers. Staffing these jobs is highly volatile since most people working for them are also freelancers flown in from all over the world. When they bid for these projects (with Shell, Conoco, and others) it takes weeks/months to mobilize their personal, ships and technology for the job.

Usually when there is a reason to reduce capacity on a rig (mostly due to weather) it's normal to just stand-by (sometimes for weeks) until they can continue with the job. When I worked offshore it was never possible to say when I get back home, e.g. the job was estimated to last 10 days but could end in 4 months. And once we were done we were almost always flown to a new destination (so they would try to keep us out there as long as possible). While places like the North Sea regulations would be strict (28 days offshore would be max before you have to go back to shore), in the Golf of Mexico, or in Asia we would never have such rules. I know people who spent months locked in the compression chambers (sat system) or until the project was over. And none of us dared to say we want to go home (it would be career ending).

[1] Oceaneering, McDermott, ...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellhead

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by lmilcin on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:39PM (#22619201)
What do you mean by "require freshly pumped oil"? The contract is for a commodity at a certain price at some time in the future. There might some quality requirements but other than that nobody cares whether it comes from storage or is freshly pumped. It is beneficial for the buyer that the seller has ample storage because it means less risk that the seller defaults on the contract.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by gpm on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:17PM (#22619639)
I mean I could imagine some contract where party A agreed to continue to accept/transport/"deal with" all the oil party B produces, and is required to continue even if they are losing money on the deal.

I'm not sure why anyone would have signed such a contract, which is why I called it weird, but it does seem plausible.

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by cpwright on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @04:02PM (#22620668)
If you buy a futures contract, you are required to accept delivery of some fixed amount. You don't have to take "all the oil party B produces", just what you agreed to ahead of time. This protects you from upward price trends, and the producer from downward price trends.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by gpm on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @04:37PM (#22620979)
Sure, but if the cost of short term futures contracts is negative or zero the oil companies would just buy them back instead of continuing to produce. When we say the cost of oil, we really mean the cost of short term oil futures.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by anticensor on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:07PM (#22619537)
Government productions contracts might require fresh production. No one else would realistically insist on that.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by echelon on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:32PM (#22619784)
Does it make sense to buy oil/energy stocks now? They have to rebound on a long-term horizon, right? (You can't replace plastics with solar.)

I suppose that works unless the companies become insolvent?

Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by dontparticipate on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @03:39PM (#22620417)
Never try to catch a falling knife.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by fulafel on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @03:41PM (#22620442)
We'll have to leave most oil in the ground or face a very bad climate change that will decimate any short term profits.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by LarryDarrell on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:48PM (#22619308)
My main client works in the reservoir exploration space in the Oil&Gas industry. I'm prepared for it, but I can tell that I'm going to have to replace a big chunk of income very soon.
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by walkingolof on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:03PM (#22619474)
I read in the Economist that this price war was initiated by Russia as an attempt to kill off the American oil industry who is in deep debt and in increasingly under pressure..
Re:Stocks Halt; Oil and Bonds Drop in Sync by dmurray on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @01:29PM (#22619079)
Saudi Arabia likes to play games with the market, but they probably won't keep pumping oil if prices go negative. So you might see isolated examples of oil trading free or negative, as gets breathlessly reported when it happens to wind or solar, but it won't happen systematically.