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Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by throwanem on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:58AM (#22606186)
If this happens, how does an ordinary someone, with a solid buffer in a regular savings account, protect the value of that buffer?

That's an investment in financial stability, with returns valued in peace of mind rather than dollars. I'm not rich enough or reckless enough to qualify for a bailout. So how do I protect myself?

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:03PM (#22606260)
there's no way to protect yourself from it. You either Risk up and get into equities or have everything taken from you via inflation and low interest rates: that's the whole point. this is a wealth transfer from savers to non-savers.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by Robotbeat on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:05PM (#22606275)
Either put the capital to use in the real economy, or moths and rust will destroy your hoard.

That's fair.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by spking on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:11PM (#22606357)
That sounds overly simplistic. There are many savers who currently rent, and through sacrifice/discipline scrape an extra thousand or two per month in an effort to save for a down payment on a house. That is not "hoarding", that is capital that will be deployed in the "real" economy, just not right this instant.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:58PM (#22607039)
Nobody says you have to buy the house right now, but in the meantime you have the choice between keeping it as cash in a bank account or stock in a brokerage account. A disincentive to hoard currency in the midst of turmoil is not a bad thing.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by spking on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:03PM (#22607107)
So you would have the disciplined saver risk their capital in equities that are highly volatile and dropping precipitously?
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:08PM (#22607186)
Somebody has to if you want companies to be able to raise capital and carry on forming new businesses and employing people etc. It's your choice whether you prefer that or the moths and rust.

Hard times aren't as safe as good times, all around.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by spking on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:16PM (#22607299)
Sure, I think I understand the spirit of your point and agree that a healthy economy relies upon capital circulating through the system. That said, there is a wide spectrum of people with different financial situations and risk appetites. There are lots of institutional and individual investors who are in a better position to take on the risk of putting their low-yield savings into equities and accept significant volatility. The small-time saver who is desperately trying to break out of the rent cycle is probably not going to have the stomach for that, and I don't think that is the cohort that is going to impede the free flow of capital into and out of the stock market anyway.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:40PM (#22607648)
Small time savers don't get higher interest rates on their savings accounts than institutional investors. If you give high guaranteed interest rates on savings accounts during turmoil, all the money goes there, which is problematic.

Investors get paid to take risks. The less risk you want, the less you get paid, and there is a point at which you're taking so little risk that you get paid less than you lose to moths and rust. During hard times, the level of risk required to get a positive return is higher.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by Doingmything123 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:23PM (#22607392)
I'm not sure I follow your argument. Don't most savers put their money in banks who then have to redeploy it to make a profit? In fact, isn't it more useful to have banks utilize this capital instead of a crowds of ordinary people moving small sums? Banks aggregating wealth to be redeployed seems more efficient.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:31PM (#22607507)
The Fed just cut the banks' reserve requirements to zero, which means they don't require any deposits in order to make loans anymore. They have no use for your money. That's why you may have to pay them to hold it for you.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by Doingmything123 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:49PM (#22607777)
My understanding of the reserve requirements were that they set how much of the total amount deposited the banks had to hold on to at any given time. Setting the requirement to zero means that banks can deploy all of the capital they have in loans. If anything, shouldn't this be the other way around? They want more deposits because they can use the full amount instead of say 90%(holding on to a 10% reserve) or whatever the number was and make more money while paying savers the same amount. Or are you relating this to interest rates going to zero which seems like a better point for why banks wouldn't need deposits? Though the amount of interest savers get from banks is close to zero anyways right? So it still seems to me that banks want as many people deposited with them as possible since they can now use all of the money given to them.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:04PM (#22608017)
Suppose you take your $5000 in cash into the bank and deposit it. They put the cash in their vault and credit your account with $5000. Now they have 100% reserves.

Alice, Bob and Carol come into the bank and each take out a $5000 loan. The bank credits each of their accounts with $5000, but there is still only $5000 in their vault, so now they have 25% reserves. As long as the reserve requirement is below 25%, this is fine. If the reserve requirement was 30%, they couldn't make that many loans.

With a 0% reserve requirement, they could loan your $5000 to a million different people and have 0.000001% reserves and still be allowed because 0.000001% is more than 0%. They could send you away and the bank manager could deposit a dollar and they could make unlimited loans from it. They have no use for your money.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by Doingmything123 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:16PM (#22608184)
Ah, so reading up on this, it really is unintuitive. I guess the only worry then is if this will bite tax payers. Thanks for the expanation
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:08PM (#22606325)
Do you think it's fair, that the government issues you a Dollar one year, and the next year, they devalue it by 2% or more? then they devalue it some more every year 2% or more?

If we can't even rely on a stable currency, what is the point of government? we might as well go back to bartering. In fact, this is what is happening. As people can't rely on money to hold it's value anymore, they're going back to hard assets like stocks, and real estate.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by snowwrestler on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:15PM (#22606435)
You're acting like the government invented inflation; it didn't. Before central banks, inflation fluctuated freely in the economy, sometimes very high, sometimes into significant deflation. This volatility exacerbated other economic or financial fluctuations, causing a lot of problems. The goal of central banking is not to introduce or create inflation, but to manage it for greater certainty in long-term investment. A steady 2%/year inflation is a stable currency.

If you think it's bad knowing that your dollar will devalue 2% every year, imagine trying to make plans not know whether it was going to drop or go up 7% next year--or anything in between.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:15PM (#22606432)
> Do you think it's fair, that the government issues you a Dollar one year, and the next year, they devalue it by 2% or more?

Inflation is at record lows. If anything, deflation is rearing its ugly head.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by cdiddy2 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:43PM (#22608543)
I disagree. Inflation is only low because we don't measure it right. https://www.cornerstonewm.com/downloads/measuring-inflation....

Inflation is much closer to whats listed here for many americans. https://chapwoodindex.com/

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by isoskeles on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:38PM (#22606753)
Rent doesn’t seem to have gotten cheaper. Food too. And education and health care. How exactly is inflation at record lows, because the BLS said so?
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:55PM (#22607005)
Those things cost more relative to other things. Inflation is everything costs more, specifically including wages, because dollars aren't worth as much.

The reason e.g. rents are high is that there is high demand for housing in cities and zoning restricts new construction. That's not inflation.

[dead]
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by cdiddy2 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:46PM (#22608573)
Yes there is conspiracy here. We have changed the way we measure inflation over the years. It completely changed how we count housing costs and technology.

"if we calculated inflation today the same way we did during Carter’sadministration, CPI would be closer to 10% rather than the 1.5% calculated as of 12/31/10 by the government."

https://www.cornerstonewm.com/downloads/measuring-inflation....

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by asdfadsfgfdda on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:50PM (#22607789)
Measuring inflation is not straight forward. How do you calculate inflation of completely new products, like smartphones? How do you measure inflation on a car that is superior in every attribute (fuel economy, safety, reliability) to a car of 10 years ago? How do you measure inflation on non-rival goods, like access to wikipedia?
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by Robotbeat on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:48PM (#22608617)
Yes.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by AlexandrB on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:39PM (#22606766)
That’s only fair if the economy was run responsibly. Is the government going to bail out retail “savers” who invest in equities after the next disastrous credit bubble?
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by ComputerGuru on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:57PM (#22611516)
That’s stupid. People don’t save so they can die with lots of zeros in their bank account, they save because they want to inject that money into your so-called “real economy” but at a later date, perhaps when they’ve retired or when they’ve amassed sufficient savings to make that large purchase they’ve been eyeing.

You can’t punish people for saving on one hand and then charge them exorbitant rates or deny them loans altogether when they want to purchase a house without that down payment at hand.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by pmoriarty on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:23PM (#22606551)
"Either put the capital to use in the real economy, or moths and rust will destroy your hoard."

I'd like to explain this to my elderly parents, who have cash sitting around in savings accounts and don't invest, but don't think trying to scare them with "moths and rust" is going to be very convincing.

What's a more convincing way to explain this?

Also, are money market accounts also going to be hit hard by negative interest rates, or would that be considered investing?

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by jbay808 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:40PM (#22606774)
If your parents are elderly, maybe a savings account is the right place for their money.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by armagon on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:35PM (#22606719)
With the caveats that I don't know more than the basics of investing and have a few years for funds to grow, I found the audiobook "The Simple Path to Wealth: Your Road Map to Financial Independence and a Rich, Free Life" by JL Collins to be very useful.

I don't think it'll touch strongly on saving your money being a bad idea, and I really don't remember anything about negative interest rates, but it does make investing seem much less scary.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:53PM (#22608695)
A "few years for funds to grow" is probably the opposite of what his elderly parents have.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by armagon on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:51PM (#22610273)
That's why I mentioned it as a caveat.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by growlist on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:09PM (#22607193)
If you can't get ahead, why even try? Easier to fall back to simpler ways of living - and in the end that certainly doesn't keep rich folks in private jets etc.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by kragen on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:45PM (#22606851)
The traditional answer to this question, for centuries, has been: if you're poor, buy gold, by weight — although acid for the acid test is getting harder to come by these days, very precise electronic scales are easy; if you're rich, open a Swiss bank account — no longer an option available to US citizens. At US$1534 per troy ounce, 20 kg of gold is worth US$986400, so you can carry your entire savings in a backpack in the form of gold if necessary. To a great extent this was illegal in the US from 1933, when the government confiscated all the gold and silver coins it could find, until 1974.

If you're buying today as opposed to two weeks ago you might consider some silver, because its price has been driven sharply down relative to gold by the recent flight to cash.

There are other options. You can use banknotes; although a US$100 bill has lost >90% of its value relative to gold since the end of the gold standard, 15 hundred-dollar bills still weigh less than an ounce. As we saw a couple of years ago in India, though, the government can declare your savings illegal with the stroke of a pen ("demonetization"), and then nobody in other countries will accept them anymore; less drastically, they can just print more money, producing inflation and having the same effect as a negative interest rate.

Gold and banknotes have the disadvantage that they're easy for bad people to steal from you, whether those bad people are the police ("asset forfeiture") or just have poor impulse control. Alternatives that are harder to steal: Bitcoin (although on Thursday it lost 50% of its value); treasury bonds (although they'll also lose value with negative interest rates and inflation); real estate (although some friends of mine had their house bulldozed by the government last year while they were fighting in court to keep it).

Diversify. And try to live somewhere that thinks that financial stability is more important than fighting drug trafficking or pedophiles or computer criminals or whatever excuse they're giving this year to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by pmiller2 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:58PM (#22607038)
Gold is fairly illiquid when you need cash in an emergency. There’s also some volatility to it. Those are two things you really don’t want in a store of value.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by growlist on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:30PM (#22607483)
You'll likely still be able to sell gold for something in all but the very worst SHTF scenario. I'm not sure you can say the same about many other types of investment. Those ETFs won't buy many rabbits for the pot.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by kragen on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:17PM (#22609837)
It's a good point though that silver is often more practical. Silver is also a hell of a bargain today (relative to gold).
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by pmoriarty on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:06PM (#22607155)
"if you're poor, buy gold, by weight — although acid for the acid test is getting harder to come by these days, very precise electronic scales are easy"

If you were really intent on buying physical gold, I don't know why you would bother with this instead of just buying gold coins from the US Mint. I don't think you'd have to worry about getting counterfeit gold in that case.

But why own physical gold? Why not just trade in gold futures or buy gold mining shares?

Same with silver.

"if you're rich, open a Swiss bank account — no longer an option available to US citizens"

If you want the stability of the Swiss Franc, it can be traded on the foreign exchange market.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by kragen on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:14PM (#22607265)
> I don't know why you would bother with this instead of just buying gold coins from the US Mint

Heavy gold chains under your clothes are a lot safer when you're traveling than a bunch of coins. Moreover, the 1933 Executive Order confiscated the coins but not the chains.

> But why own physical gold? Why not just trade in gold futures or buy gold mining shares?

It's harder to confiscate, especially at scale.

> If you want the stability of the Swiss Franc, it can be traded on the foreign exchange market.

What does the franc have to do with anything? This is a non sequitur.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by kragen on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:19PM (#22609051)
Also, I'd like to point out that historically speaking it's quite common for mints to substitute cheaper metals in new issues of the same coins; this has happened since at least the Roman empire. The most conspicuous case of this in the US was when in 1965 the mint replaced the silver quarter and dime with silver-plated copper and the copper penny with copper-plated zinc; of course silver-plated copper quarters had existed in the US since at least the 1800s, but at that time they were called "counterfeit quarters". You can read about them in Huckleberry Finn.

Of course coin collectors and anyone dealing in bullion will not treat the coins as equivalent, and historically speaking this is one of the reasons for stamping the year and mint mark on the coins, but this is entirely at the discretion of the mint; there's nothing stopping them from issuing new "gold" coins with a lower percentage of gold and the same year mark, except for the same kind of social pressures that prevent the government from simply expropriating the contents of your bank account (as they did here in Argentina in 2001) or refusing to pay its bonds (as is happening here in Argentina right now.)

You might object that the United States isn't Argentina. But until just before 2001 Argentina wasn't Argentina either, not as we know it today; its troubles were behind it and it was the model country the IMF would show off to demonstrate how effective its economic recovery plans could be, even as the economy was gradually hollowed out. People living in the US, a country whose stock market just fell by 30% in a month and which didn't manage to produce or allow the importation of a reasonable number of COVID-19 tests until this weekend (although Korea, Japan, Germany, Taiwan, and China had no trouble with this) may find this sounds familiar.

If someone is concerned about the banking system expropriating their savings, it is not a reasonable response to offer them an alternative that makes it easy for banks, stockbrokers, or the government to expropriate their savings. That's precisely the kind of threat they want to defend against.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by gerikson on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:02PM (#22606236)
If we’re looking at a situation like the Great Depression, we might have deflation. In that case your dollars will buy more and more as prices fall.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:05PM (#22606284)
With the immense amount of deficit the gov is currently under and will be under in the future, and the monetary policy of printing money, I'd say high inflation is much more likely. Even in the last several years, we've been having near 2%, or even over 2% inflation.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by jhayward on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:48PM (#22606889)
2% is historically low, and is in fact below what the Federal Reserve has been trying mightily to achieve. Inflation has been below target since the 2008 crash, more or less.

There is a massive deflationary force acting on the economy. Anyone bringing up inflation fears, except to dismiss them, is not tracking any known factual reality.

Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by vikramkr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:10PM (#22606345)
That's not high. We've been desperately trying to get inflation up and have taken extraordinary measures to try and raise inflation, but we're actually in a historic low inflation regime that's quite concerning - the fed would be thrilled if we'd be at 2-3 percent inflation consistently and easily. It's the reason we haven't been able to raise rates as high as they used to be, making government borrowing cheap, and why we've kept printing money. We're trying to get inflation up, its just not working that well.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by tsherr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:00PM (#22606216)
I'm guessing invest in stocks that pay dividends.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by tathougies on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:16PM (#22606441)
Um dividends reduce the price of the shares. But, investing in a stable blue chip company to preserve wealth is a good idea. But 'stable, blue chip' doesn't mean dividend paying. They're two disjoint groups.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:27PM (#22606608)
You could consider high yield bonds, some of those pay out 4% to 5%. But, they are EXTREMELY risky. As, you can see from the huge equity drop in the last few days. In times of great stress, any kind of fixed income above 3% yield, will drop down 15% to 25% (at least in the latest example). Not, quite as huge of a drop as equities but still enough to make you worry.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by beamatronic on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:13PM (#22606391)
Pay down your mortgage. Guaranteed to save you money in the long term.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by tathougies on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:15PM (#22606421)
Or refinance your mortgage and get paid for it...
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by theklub on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:41PM (#22606788)
Is that possible?
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by hocuspocus on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:38PM (#22606757)
Switzerland here. There hasn't been a reason to keep a savings account in a long time. My retired parents have mid six figures in cash doing nothing.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by Invictus0 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:07PM (#22606319)
You can still get a decent 1.85% 12 month CD with Marcus.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:30PM (#22606647)
That's going away soon. so better get in quick. If they hold ZIRP as long as they did last time, it'll be a very long time before we see rates go back up again.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by twiceaday on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:09PM (#22606338)
You can make a CD ladder so some money is available more often if its an emergency fund.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:19PM (#22606495)
Or just get a high interest savings account and enjoy more liquidity.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by easymodex on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:35PM (#22611850)
Buy bitcoin, I wish I could say I'm joking.
Re:Upside-Down World of Negative Rates Is Coming for U.S. Sa... by ad31mar on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:09PM (#22607201)
> So how do I protect myself?

Pretty sure this will get downvoted, but just 5% Bitcoin + 95% cash has historically beaten equities with less risk.