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Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:01AM (#22604456)
I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux version of the old Soulseek). What should I do? Accept that I won't find it?

I remember once writing to an Aussie record label asking for a copy of an old album of Brett Garsed. They told me I wouldn't find it here in Europe nor they had the means to send it to me. Should I just accept it? Once again, I could find it in Nicotine++.

I can't find many movies I like in original language in Netflix, HBO and Amazon, all services I have legal accounts for. Again, should I just accept I won't watch them knowing that I might find them in other channels?

I live in Spain, country where I pay a compensation copyright tax for every pen drive, computer, hard drive, TV set, etc, I purchase just in case I download something "illegally".

It turns out I'm lazy/I choose not to spend the required time and I accept not enjoying albums and movies I otherwise would.

Well, let me tell you I applaud Popcorn Time.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by severine on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:24AM (#22604638)
Fellow Soulseeker here. The compensation copyright tax ended in 2011:

Cancellation of the fee

On March 24, 2011, the National Court annulled the order that regulates the rates applicable to the various devices and supports recorded with the digital canon. The reason is that, because it is a regulation, it needed procedures related to supporting and economic reports that were not carried out.

On July 12, 2011, the Congress of Deputies voted favorably on a non-law proposal that urges the Government to abolish said canon and replace it with another compensation formula for authors and content owners that is more suited to copies and uses actually made.

On December 31, 2011 the canon was definitively repealed by the newly constituted new Congress of Deputies, being replaced by a new payment this time by the State whose procedure is about to be developed.

Source (in spanish): https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_por_copia_privada_(Espa%...

I join the clapping, sorry for the nitpick!

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:44AM (#22604787)
Nothing to feel sorry about! I don't know how I could have missed that but I'm so lucky it ended! Having said this, I still find myself entitled to search for copies of cultural material I like :)

Still, too lazy/don't have the time to do it.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by dylan604 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:40AM (#22605208)
> I still find myself entitled

I think that sums it up pretty well. Thanks for at least being honest about it.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by 1_player on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:01AM (#22605480)
Is it being entitled wanting to be entertained by a piece of art or media?

That is its very purpose.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by dylan604 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:18AM (#22605668)
Having wants is not being entitled. Thinking that one deserves and should have everything one wants is being entitled.

The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be. If they are an artist creating solely for the purpose of making art for be people to enjoy, then your premise is acceptable. If the artist is trying to earn money for their work, then that is their choice. If the artist wants to release their work for the world to enjoy, there are legit ways of doing that and protecting it so that other cannot prevent that free enjoyment.

I know I'm tilting at windmills with this topic on this particular website, but creating art isn't free and nobody has the right to be entertained by it just by being (either the work or the viewer) be default.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by DennisP on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:07PM (#22607179)
The purpose of copyright, according to the Constitution which gives the government the right to grant it, is to promote the public domain. It's not doing that very effectively now that copyright remains in effect 70 years past the death of the artist.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by Mediterraneo10 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:40AM (#22605927)
> The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be.

Your argument is complicated by the fact that a lot of media, and especially for old out-of-print works, the copyright holder is not the person who actually created the work. At best it is a descendant family member, at worst it is a person or corporation who came into the copyright without the knowledge and consent of the artist.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by Fnoord on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:41PM (#22606799)
We're talking about music from the 40s. The various copyright extensions are part of the problem.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by ObscureScience on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:42PM (#22607686)
Being entitled doesn't mean "I should have anything I want without giving something up". It means that I believe that I have "payed" for this in some way. You may be delusional for believing it, or overvaluating you "payment" though. I would add that self-entitlement would be a good term if you are the only one who determined the value of the object of want and the value of your sacrifice.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by coribuci on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:35AM (#22605867)
> Having wants is not being entitled. Thinking that one deserves and should have everything one wants is being entitled.

U.S. of A would like to have a word with you.

> The purpose of art or media is whatever the creator wants it to be.

The purpose of art and media is to generate revenue. People who create just for art are an insignificant minority. The main issue is that when this art does not generate revenue it is thrown away. Then it is no more art. It becomes (like) garbage.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by dylan604 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:46AM (#22605274)
>I remember once writing to an Aussie record label asking for a copy of an old album of Brett Garsed

I applaud the effort at legitimately trying to get a copy. However, sounds like an opportunity still might exist. Small record labels are always hard pressed for cash. Maybe there's a business deal to be made. I'm sure they would be open to licensing the music to you. You could then release the album yourself, or maybe a compilation album with tracks from other artists in the same style of music. Now you have the opportunity to bring that music to a wider audience based on your interest while maybe making a little money on it as well.

This is HN after all. Maybe there's some new website you can make that allows cash strapped record labels to distribute the music legitimately using some new programming language of the day. You could then write up a Show HN and let us all know. We might even be interested.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:39AM (#22605923)
This was 20 years ago, my friend. The world wasn't as connected as it is now. I actually struggled to find out the record label!
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by dylan604 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:07PM (#22608049)
Sure, physical media for the average consumer is no longer a thing. We sold vinyl records, and that is still a desirable thing for the niche markets. So, maybe just think of it from a slightly different angle/perspective. Make it a collector's item. Collectors want physical product to own/possess/show off. There's still a market for physical forms of musical recordings. If this is really a niche product, then cater to the niche market. The niche market knows/accepts it is niche and there's a bit of a premium mark up that can be taken advantage of here. Surely, you're not the only person looking for this type of sound. Capitalize on that like we did. Do it as a side hustle. Reach out to labels that own the rights to the track you like. Put together a compilation. Produce the physical product. If you don't do it, who will? Granted, it's way more work than just pirating a copy from someone else.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by gmueckl on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:55AM (#22605396)
What deals could a small label make with an unknown trader with no reputation that are better than uploading the backlog to Spotify with little effort and hoping for a bit of income? This is assuming that the label has the right to upload the works.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by dylan604 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:32AM (#22605817)
Things are possible. One just needs the courage to ask and possibly be told no, and even more courage to proceed if they say yes.

I have personal experience of starting a niche record store with a friend. We were both tired of the music we wanted not being available and decided we'd do it ourselves. Neither of us had any idea about the music industry. We both put in $500 each. Every dime of that was used to buy the initial inventory. We had no money to have a website built (circa 1999). So I learned how to use MySQL and PHP and built one. During the years we ran the business, there were many conversations with artists and record labels. We sold compilation albums where other people licensed individual tracks from labels and arranged them together onto a CD. We even had several discussions about starting our label, but stopped short of that.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by 1_player on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:55AM (#22605410)
It's called Spotify, Apple Music, Google Music (does it still exist?)

My brother made a song with 10 yearly listens and I can find it on there.

Also Bandcamp is a thing. Very few dinosaurs or really, super niche artists are on neither platform.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by jjulius on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:41AM (#22605216)
>I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux version of the old Soulseek). What should I do? Accept that I won't find it?

Not sure if you've heard of it or not, but Discogs might be a great place for you to source and purchase a used copy of those albums.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by kkarakk on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:46AM (#22605275)
I tried using this, 1st of all the music was in CDs by a third party seller - which is not a deal breaker but may be to some others.

However,seller declined to ship me discs(to india) even though i was willing to pay shipping. He said customs tends to seize items like music cds

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by jjulius on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:47AM (#22605297)
Ah bummer! :(
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:48AM (#22606034)
Thanks for the recommendation, sir! I will check it out!
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by degski on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:16PM (#22606442)
> I live in Spain, country where I pay a compensation copyright tax for every ...

I don't know specifically about Spain, but this 'copyright tax' [that was introduced in most, if not all European countries, probably a directive] was for you to legally be able to create copies on your devices of legally acquired contents.

The interpretation you have been giving it, is mentally satisfying, but not legally tenable

There seems to be contents on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=manouche . I leave it for you as home-work to ddgo the solution from there.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by koonsolo on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:48PM (#22609470)
It still is a ripoff. Nobody says I'm going to use that storage to take copies.

But yeah "I took a backup but lost the original, good thing I took the backup!" ;).

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by degski on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:30PM (#22613011)
Yes, it's a rip-off, I'm trying to state the facts, that does not mean I agree with it nor that I adhere to it.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by sbarre on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:47AM (#22605300)
I mean, one of the answers to your question is in fact: "accept that you do not get to consume that media".

I'm not advocating for or against what you are choosing to do, but the position of "it's my only choice" is not really accurate. You have no inherent right to that media.

Popcorn Time and other P2P file sharing tools are convenient, but let's not be hypocrites about it, they enable illegal behaviour and allow you to go against the wishes of content creators, denying them both revenue from and control of their creations.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:58AM (#22605450)
You in fact have no inherent right to control other people's computers.

It's hard to justify why you think that creators have a right to the contents of your hard drive and wallet. I don't remember being party to the social or legal contract that created such rights nor realistically do I have a voice in changing it.

If society says that as a poor person in addition to having less of everything else I ought to enjoy less movies, music, books, games then perhaps society can go to hell.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by scarejunba on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:51PM (#22606935)
Without judgment I find it amusing that these arguments rapidly converge to ones used by the participants on subreddits for shoplifting and stealing.

I'm not saying the acts are equivalent, just that the positions are.

It also feels like statistically I should have read at least one comment where someone is convinced by argument that their copyright infringement is wrong but over twenty years on the Internet, I actually haven't. Very interesting.

It's also pretty easy for me to not judge since I've done things of dubious ethicality myself: I've never paid for a full copy of a textbook. Either I've bought the Asian copy or I've been part of a pool-and-photocopy group. Even now I use scihub preferentially.

Interestingly, the scihub usage is more acceptable online than the pool-and-photocopy but in real life no one has given me any grief for either.

To be honest, I don't feel very guilty either. And I'd do it again. If I attempt to see it as something shameful, convincing arguments defending myself pop out. I suspect it's something in the shape of the elephant and the mahout - the justification comes because I've already decided what I'll do. What I'll do is not rationally justified - that's coming after.

I'd speculate (idly) that this is the same mechanism in other pirates.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by michaelmrose on Thursday March 19, 2020 @05:29AM (#22625868)
I deal with shoplifters daily none have yet expressed the position that private property ought not to exist much less provided a fair line of reasoning supporting the position.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by scarejunba on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:06AM (#22644871)
Oh there's a subreddit where they met where they'd say that all the time. Don't know if it's still up.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by sbarre on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:58PM (#22610950)
> You in fact have no inherent right to control other people's computers.

The legal system in your jurisdiction may disagree with you on that one.

> It's hard to justify why you think that creators have a right to the contents of your hard drive and wallet

I never tried to "justify" creators doing anything to your computer or anyone else's? Show me where I said that? That's a preexisting grindy-axe you brought along with you, friend..

I simply said that P2P file sharing denies content creators (big and small) control over the use of the works they own.

Which is strikingly similar to your position that other people shouldn't control your belongings, don't you think?

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by michaelmrose on Thursday March 19, 2020 @06:09AM (#22626056)
There is only one class of possessions. All else is aggrements not possessions and in a wholly owned subsidiary of the rich I don't feel morally bound by the agreements between the upper middle class and the owner class.

The agreement is that the government will attempt to keep you and I from improving each other's lots by sharing under the idea that the notes hanging in the air forged of air and emotions are sort of like a ham sandwich.

From what I can tell they have secured increasingly one sided agreements mostly by legalized corruption wherein the parties who write nothing, sing nothing, express nothing, invent nothing but own much make campaign contributions.

Physical property is problematic itself but certainly cannot be fixed incrementally or in total by pretending property isn't a thing because one must still deal with the exclusive nature of physical goods whether we acknowledge the fact or not whereas piracy can indeed simply route around the upper classes contact's.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by sbarre on Thursday March 26, 2020 @12:17PM (#22695094)
You seem to be an extremely cynical individual. I'm sorry to see that. Wish I could help.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by michaelmrose on Sunday March 29, 2020 @11:28PM (#22724971)
I'm not sure why you classify abstract reasoning as cynicism. If you are less pessimistic about your fellow man its likely you are merely in a better position where you can afford an objectively less realistic position.

I know I don't regularly worry about how a broken system funnels food into American's trash cans while others starve because I personally have never been in a position where starvation is even remotely possible.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by saagarjha on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:44AM (#22605975)
> I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s).

Keep in mind that many of the content creators are now dead.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:04PM (#22606270)
I am very aware! And it's not that popular, reason why it's hard to find.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by bschne on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:41PM (#22606785)
OT, but as a fan of Django who doesn't know any other artists of the genre - do you have some recommendations? :D
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:03PM (#22607113)
Really?! Start by this, listen to this radio (there are many more) and once you like an artist, find him in Spotify and look for similar artists. http://www.jazzradio.fr/radio/webradio/10/jazz-manouche
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:37AM (#22605889)
I'm going to be honest with all of you. You all are doing something that is ethically and morally wrong and statements like this are only way too human attempts to justify the actions of things you know are clearly wrong. You can't find legal sources of swing manouche just like you can't find legal sources of the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da vinci. What are you going to do? make a counterfeit copy of the Mona Lisa then buy tickets to the art museum to absolve you of all crimes?

That being said I use popcorn time and stremio and torrents regularly. The difference is, I don't justify my crimes. I'm aware of what I'm doing, I don't need to live in a universe that is a self created moral illusion. I likely will do something unethical if I could hide it and it made economic sense. I am human and, morally, I am imperfect, but unlike most of you, morally, I am aware of my imperfections and I don't try to construct logical scaffolding to lie to myself and others. I can pirate because most people pay for the things I pirate, such a model is only sustainable if most people don't do what I do. Things like popcorn time threaten to change the balance.

If you want to save the world or do better for the world, do not assume that the world is as described by our parent poster pachico. It's not intelligent to assume that people are going to use popcorn time then purchase Netflix to offset some of that guilt (still a crime btw). Assume the world is made out of people who are as pachico really is.. people who are morally grey but make up lies and illusions to comfort themselves into thinking they are justified in their crimes.

I stopped pirating games 10 years ago when my salary crossed a threshold where it wasn't worth my time anymore to pirate a game vs. the convenience to buy it from steam. The way to combat piracy is to create systems that appeal to the previous aforementioned logic.

Spotify was a step in the right direction but it eliminated much of the huge profits made by the music industry. Perhaps those profits were ludicrously too large anyway. Either way, the way forward isn't trying to justify your crimes. It's admitting that hey, we are victims of the tragedy of the commons, we use popcorn time because it's free and easy to use... to combat this situation you either need to take steps to destroy this product or come up with something way better.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:00PM (#22606214)
For the sake of argument, I'm contemplating the idea of counterfeiting Mona Lisa, as you say. I can't see anything wrong with it if it's for my own personal pleasure and I'm not hurting anyone.

Don't forget copyright is a human construct and is far from being perfect. Also the amount of years after which art becomes public is human made and totally arbitrary. Why not 2 years? Why not 500 years? Ethics are not in the game here, I'm afraid. I'd like you to reply but please, restrain yourself from insults this time. Thanks

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @04:43PM (#22621039)
Ok it's not wrong from a very technical sense for the mona lisa. I obviously meant forgery, where you claim the painting is an actual mona lisa... but Who cares? That's not my point.

My point is what you're doing is wrong and you know it on some level.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by psychlops on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:16PM (#22606443)
Without disagreeing with what you wrote, you are conflating ethical and moral with legal and criminal. They are not the same and it makes it difficult to understand the foundation upon which you rest.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:41PM (#22606790)
You're right, I didn't want to get into a philosophical argument on technicalities.

That wasn't the point. The point is that a lot of these technicalities are self constructed justifications. Illusions and lies we tell ourselves to cope with our imperfection. I conflate because I don't care about the technicalities, I'm talking about something primal and simple.

In its most simplistic form, this is what I mean:

If I create a work of art to make money or even for just limited showings and you copy it and distribute it without my permission, than you are doing something wrong and you know it.

That's all. My argument is saying that anything on top of that is an attempt to justify your actions.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:52AM (#22606101)
You seem to be quite sure about the type of person I am and defining me grey is quite insulting but that's beyond what is being discussed here. You seem to have missed what I wrote a out having accounts of Spotify and 3 video streaming services.

I am also tempted to tell you that you might want to revise you usage of the words morally and ethically and that these are probably more profound than to be applied to a kid wanting to buy an album but failed to find it. Having said this, have a good day.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:34PM (#22606697)
>I am also tempted to tell you that you might want to revise you usage of the words morally and ethically and that these are probably more profound than to be applied to a kid wanting to buy an album but failed to find it. Having said this, have a good day.

Don't make it profound. Make it simple. The kid couldn't find the album so he DLed it illegally. The kid is aware of this illegality at some level.

That awareness is how simple the situation actually is. The profoundness arises when someone tries to justify the situation. I use the word ethics and morals as one would use it in common english parlance about discussions of such matters, I am not asking for a philosophical definition of said terms.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:10PM (#22607217)
Here's where you are wrong, also: it wasn't illegal (at least at the time - now I don't know since I don't download stuff). So, being that the case, all your profound, simple, philosophical or vague attempts to find this illegal, and therefore wrong, are useless, I'm afraid. As pointed by someone also, you seem to argue that illegal follows wrong but that's not granted. Legality is an attempt to out in practice a certain amount of ideas about what right and wrong is by a certain society at a given time in history, that's all.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:13PM (#22609791)
I didn't make anything profound or philosiphical that's just you. I'm conflating illegality, morality and ethics into a singular simple concept: What you did is wrong plain and simple, and you're aware of it.

What's going on with your 'philosophy' now is a complicated attempt at justification.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:45AM (#22605987)
My specific case was live albums of a band named Waso, which were never printed in CD. The only digital copies were fans that owned original vinil records from the '70s and digitalised them. What do you do in this case? I remember downloading a copy of them and not feeling any kind of remorse about it. Not sure it helps but I was myself a musician and my brother plays too as is his only source of income. I know a bit of the industry.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:28PM (#22606617)
Well let's put it this way, does the artist as the the creator of said art permit you to do such a thing?

If the artist is okay with it great! But if the artist is not okay with at all does he own the rights to the art he created? Does he have the right to permit you not to copy his things? That is the ethical question.

Did you have the right to do it without asking the artist for permission? What if one day the artist did actually want to make a profit off his work?

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by pachico on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:21PM (#22607370)
This is not an ethical question, again, this is, at most, a legal question.
Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by shadowprofile77 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:32PM (#22619785)
Your argument about the Mona Lisa i absurd. You can indeed make as many copies of her as you like and even sell them or put them on paid display to others (if they'll even pay to see it) and it's not in the least bit illegal, as long as you don't claim they're the original. It doesn't fit this scenario. Secondly, you first accuse a bunch of people here of moral infringements then plainly state that you yourself commit piracy, but that it's somehow better, because you don't "justify" your "crimes". You actually do, by saying it's less morally wrong because you're "aware" of your actions.

Quite a shit mix of contradictions.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by crimsonalucard on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @04:41PM (#22621018)
>You actually do, by saying it's less morally wrong because you're "aware" of your actions.

This is an utter lie. I never said this. Me being aware of my actions does NOT make any of my actions more moral. I never said this. You are either lying or delusional.

I'm actually a very high scorer on the psychopathy spectrum. The official term is antisocial disorder. This means I am technically less moral than most people.

Me being aware of my actions only makes me aware of my actions and my morality and who I actually am as a person. That's it.

>as long as you don't claim they're the original. It doesn't fit this scenario.

You're getting into technicalities. Let me put it simply. It fits. I'm talking about the general notion and feeling about plagiarism. This is the ENTIRE point of my conversation. Copying something without permission is in general wrong. There are cases where if the author is dead for over a century then things may feel gray, but who cares.

I don't want to get into technicalities because I don't care for the technicalities and neither do you. We all are aware of the cases there's no need to argue about it. If you want to argue about how a "technicality" makes the original posters plagiarism correct than don't care yo have that conversation because it's a waste of my time.

Re:Popcorn Time 4.0 by degski on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @12:31PM (#22606661)
I fully agree with you on all points except: "still a crime btw". 'pirating' on this small scale without a direct financial benefit [money coming towards you] is a violation of the copyright act(s) and you would end up in civil court.