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Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by tmpz22 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @12:32PM (#22584333)
As an American citizen please Germany don’t be submissive in your response to this. Publish the emails, the phone calls, sanction us, go to the press. We deserve it.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by saturday14 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @12:54PM (#22584538)
Publish the emails, the phone calls, sanction us, go to the press

Agree with the rest, but sanctions don't hurt the people who actually came up with this shitty idea. It ends up hurting the normal guy on the road, who will probably not endorse the idea in the first place.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by wizzwizz4 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @12:56PM (#22584563)
It hurts the metrics of the people who came up with the idea, and might therefore reduce the chance they get re-elected. Plus, it adds weight to the (perceived) severity of the crime. But collateral damage is high, so it might not be the best of plans.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by programmertote on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:30PM (#22585501)
As someone who lived 22 years under a regime that was under US sanction, I disagree.

The normal day folks like us bear the biggest (by a large margin) brunt of the sanctions whereas the rich and ruling class go about their day merrily. Sure they'll encounter some inconvenience like not being able to travel to certain countries or being able to expand their businesses as much as they wish to, but they live in secluded districts with 24-hour electricity while us plebes get 12 hour electricity every day (This is just to mention the least annoying effect of artificial scarcity created by sanctions; the government couldn't get parts nor get training on technical know-how to fix/upgrade the hydro generators because of the sanctions).

A lot of people starves and the education system suffer, which sets the entire generation backward by at least 3 decades (while the rich and ruling class send their kids to international schools and then at institutions in nearby neighboring countries; some even went as far as faking their children's identities and sent them to places like Australia, Canada and even US to study).

Sanctions aren't that effective and they only hurt (and kill) the people at the bottom of the society.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by threatofrain on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:49PM (#22585642)
Without trade policy you have only words or war. For any stress you place on a country it's always going to be the poorest who suffer, even if it's a natural disaster or pandemic.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by true_religion on Monday March 16, 2020 @05:44AM (#22591290)
Sanction the rich. If the rich and middle class loose out on luxuries that they see other countries enjoying, a regime change will quickly follow.

Having the mot bags of rice, or the largest cattle herd only makes one feel rich if they don’t know about the existence of other luxuries. Sooner or later, someone will think I’d we simply off the king, we could have power AND an end to sanctions.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by programmertote on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:04PM (#22611020)
Believe it or not, the US imposed sanctions targeting specifically to the rich. But the sad reality is that a lot of poor people are dependent on the rich to make their day to day living (food). So sanctions eventually affected poor people even if they are designed for the rich. For example, make it difficult for the rich to buy cars in the country by imposing sanctions? Too bad, the rich also buy cars to run their tax companies etc. and so the sanction has to be applied to those class of cars as well. Then what happens is the car prices are too expensive across the board and people have to import second-hand cars which costs more for maintenance and are MPG inefficient. Since the car prices are too high, there's no insurance to be had and once you get into an accident as a bus driver, your life can be ruined (meaning, you'll lose your job and career regardless of whether you are at fault or not). I have not even started about gas prices (because of the sanctions, the gas prices are much higher than they should be and people have to queue up in long lines to get their weekly quota--not to mention it creates black markets and dangerous consequences like occasional fires--thereby wasting productivity of everyone involved. I'm not giving you very good examples here, but one will understand how sanctions impact poor people the most only if one has lived in a country under sanction.

The quickest and most effective way to transform an authoritarian country for the better is to let the rich, the poor and the middle class have a taste of what quality living (to some extent, the capitalism) is like. Then their children will get proper education and things will automatically change for the better in a generation at most. I have seen that with the children of the rich and military/ruling class people in my home country; these younger generations are the ones who, using their parents' accumulated enormous wealth and influence, to make changes (some bad, some pretty decent) to copy what they've tasted in other, more developed countries.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by Fjolsvith on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:04PM (#22584635)
> Plus, it adds weight to the (perceived) severity of the crime.

What law was broken? Its like saying HBO breaks a law by having their shows exclusive to their subscriber base.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by ptcampbell on Sunday March 15, 2020 @04:07PM (#22586284)
What a depressing, callous analogy. You are comparing the IP of an entertainment product to a drug of significant consequence to the health of citizens throughout the world. Well done.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by jimhefferon on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:15PM (#22584761)
Moral law?
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by Fjolsvith on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:32PM (#22584901)
Morals are subjective.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by Pfhreak on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:53PM (#22585129)
And yet, we generally agree on some baseline human standards. Sure, maybe you can find examples of people who would think this is morally reasonable, but I would guess they are a pretty extreme minority.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by whatshisface on Sunday March 15, 2020 @03:07PM (#22585791)
The people involved in the negotiation, except for whoever leaked it, thought it was permissible by the baseline human standards.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by jimhefferon on Sunday March 15, 2020 @04:46PM (#22586616)
They were wrong, though.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by Fjolsvith on Sunday March 15, 2020 @03:41PM (#22586052)
And people generally agree that HBO is within their rights to limit their programming to their subscriber base.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by dictum on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:34PM (#22585529)
I'm very obviously not a lawyer nor lawmaker, but I'm under the impression that anything can be classified as an act of war as long as another country is willing to treat it as such, and other superpowers/blocs are willing to sign off on this assessment, and back it militarily and through sanctions/incentives.

(Though this would all probably swept aside as soon as somebody reverse engineers the vaccine.)

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by x0x0 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:10PM (#22585311)
That normal guy got these decision-makers elected tho
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by navidr on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:55PM (#22585165)
It is funny you guys don’t say that when sanctioning Iran to death. The definition of hypocrisy.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by erulabs on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:57PM (#22585193)
Hypocrisy is standing for one thing and doing another. Standing against the policies of the government you’re governed by is not hypocritical, by any measure whatsoever. Americans are not individually responsible for our governments actions any more than a German is responsible for the historical actions of theirs.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by navidr on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:05PM (#22585277)
You have to think more and harder . That is the definition of hypocrisy. Showing people they do care about people and actually not giving a damn to well being of people.

> Americans are not individually responsible for our governments actions any more than a German is responsible for the historical actions of theirs.

It is funny when it comes to Iran, your politicians use the exact opposite logic.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by erulabs on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:16PM (#22585361)
I am not “my politicians”. Me and “my politicians” are individual human beings with different opinions. Disagreeing with my nations politics does not make me a hypocrite.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by navidr on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:25PM (#22585456)
So with that explanation, I would say you have not read the comment I was responding to.

>Agree with the rest, but sanctions don't hurt the people who actually came up with this shitty idea. It ends up hurting the normal guy on the road, who will probably not endorse the idea in the first place.

When you say this in the response of sanctioning the USA, but don't say that when sanctioning other countries, that does only one meaning. You don't care about ordinary people from other countries (although you claim you do). Which makes you a hypocrite.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by erulabs on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:35PM (#22585534)
Except I never mentioned sanctioning other nations. If you conflate my opinions with those of other individuals - of course you think I’m a hypocrite. Groups do not have idea or opinions - groups are just piles of individuals.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by jszymborski on Sunday March 15, 2020 @12:46PM (#22584453)
I don't know. I think the answer in a crisis is less finger-pointing and more visible displays of willingness to cooperate with one another.

There'll be plenty of time after the crisis to bring out the guillotines.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by luckydata on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:02PM (#22585241)
Finger pointing is definitely required. Turning the other cheek doesn't work when interacting with a psychopath.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by DonHopkins on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:09PM (#22585308)
Especially when the one whose incompetence and malevolence needs to be pointed out is himself doing nothing BUT finger pointing and lying, when he should instead be working on solving the problem.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by stainforth on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:50PM (#22585099)
You'd let the marauder escape, like always.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by soared on Sunday March 15, 2020 @12:54PM (#22584540)
IMO a better outcome might come from the odds of the entire world without the USA, rather than than solely the USA getting the vaccine and distributing as we see fit.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by jszymborski on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:03PM (#22584634)
Indeed, but Germany achieving that outcome by making this a PR war will just make global cooperation less likely.

This needs to be achieved by the EU leveraging as much cash as it can from other countries with an agreement to distribute the vaccine by some WHO index of need. In this way, you outbid the US by showing collaboration works.

We can't waver on global health priorities, but let the USA admin shout its way into darkness alone and not drag in global cooperation with it.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by hedora on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:23PM (#22584832)
Even better, Germany could call in Trump’s debt, and seize his assets:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/30/trump...

Weaponizing vaccine development in the middle of a public health crisis must violate some German law or another.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by ALittleLight on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:08PM (#22585302)
Sanctions seem extreme. This article alleges Trump offered to buy a vaccine exclusive to the US. That seems like it merits a "No" more than a punitive response.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by samsonradu on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:30PM (#22585503)
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by gamblor956 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:31PM (#22584890)
As am American citizen, that is quite possibly the stupidest thing Germany could do. Please, for the sake of the world, keep this information confidential until after the election.

Publishing the emails, calls, and efforts Trump made to secure an exclusive virus would just play into his hands and provide a huge boost to his political campaign. As past scandals have shown, there is no such thing as bad press for him.

So deny him the press and the coverage and let this blow over quietly until Nov 4. And then go nuts publishing all the details.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by luckydata on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:04PM (#22585260)
Bullcrap. As an American citizen I want that dangerous clown of a president we have exposed to hell and back.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by gamblor956 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:35PM (#22587005)
He's already been exposed, many times. Made no difference to his base or to a large swath of independents.

His actions on this matter won't change anyone's mind already opposed to him, but it might get a few supporters off the couch in November.

He can always be exposed again November 5th. As the impeachment demonstrates, the threat of exposure is far more damaging to Trump than the exposure itself.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by DonHopkins on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:36PM (#22585544)
Babylon 5, S05E02: The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari, @29:53

G'Kar: To the Narn Homeword, of course. You came with ships, and guns, and mass drivers. You plucked asteroids out of near orbit and sent them plunging down onto our cities, killing men and women and children. Onto the sick and the infirm and the innocent.

Londo Molari: It was not my idea. I didn't even know. It was Refa. It was not my fault. I said ...

G'Kar: You said nothing. You said Nothing. You said NOTHING. Nothing.

Londo Molari: Leave me alone.

G'Kar: No. Look at me.

Londo Molari: I can't.

G'Kar: LOOK AT ME.

G'Kar: Do you remember this place?

Londo Molari: Yes.

G'Kar: I was tortured in this place. I as whipped. Emperor Cartasia wanted to hear me scream.

Londo Molari: Yes, and if you did not scream, the 40th stroke of the whip would kill you. And your people would be slaves forever. Yes.

G'Kar: You remember.

Londo Molari: Yes.

G'Kar: You were there.

Londo Molari: Yes!

G'Kar: And you said ...nothing.

Emperor Cartasia: Thirty four. Thirty five. Thirty six.

G'Kar: Nothing.

Emperor Cartasia: Thirty seven. Thirty eight.

G'Kar: Nothing!

Emperor Cartasia: Thirty nine.

G'Kar: AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

G'Kar: One word, Molarri. One word was all that was required of you.

Londo Molari: It would not have mattered. It wouldn't have changed anything. It would not have stopped.

G'Kar: You're wrong, Mollari. Whether it was me or my world, whether it was a total stranger, or your worst enemy.

YOU WERE A WITNESS!

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'D STOP!

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'D LISTEN!

YOU HAD AN OBLIGATION TO SPEAK OUT!!!

Londo Molari: I couldn't.

G'Kar: And that's why you don't deserve to be Emperor. And that's why you don't deserve to live.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by gamblor956 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:49PM (#22585644)
I'm not saying that they should never release the details.

I'm saying they shouldn't release the details right now because right now those details are great for Trump.

Irresponsible disclosure is just as bad as non-disclosure.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by DonHopkins on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:55PM (#22585688)
Londo Mollari finally spoke out AFTER the Narn homeworld was destroyed. A lot of good that did.

You're perpetuating the myth that Trump is invincible, that "there is no such thing as bad press for him", and echoing his enablers who are whining that "now is not the time for finger pointing and talking about the past, there will be a time for that later", at the same time that Trump himself is doing nothing but finger pointing and talking about the past.

If finger pointing and talking about the past is so ineffective and off-limits, then why is Trump doing it so much, why are his allies breathlessly admonishing everyone else not to do it, and why do you think at the same time that Trump is so invincible?

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by gamblor956 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:39PM (#22587045)
I don't really care what happened in a work of fiction.

As for paragraph two, it's not a myth. It's been the last 4 years of reality. One more minor scandal won't make a difference compared to the things he's already gotten away with, and in this respect we disagree on whether it's actually a scandal for him (which you believe) or it's pandering to his base (which I believe).

It's not about making the past off-limits, it's about taking away a campaign point from Trump. What Trump tried to do is not a scandal to him. It is not a bad thing to his supporters. THEY WANT HIM TO DO STUFF LIKE THIS. And publicizing that is just giving him free publicity that will make his supporters more motivated to show up to re-elect him in November. Is that what you want?

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by zimpenfish on Monday March 16, 2020 @03:03AM (#22590649)
> "there is no such thing as bad press for him"

I mean, there's been almost 5 years of bad press for him (discounting everything before late 2015) and it hasn't really affected how the GOP treat him (like a king) or how his base seem him (like a saviour king.)

> Trump is invincible

Until the media and the GOP start doing a better job, yeah, he pretty much is, unfortunately.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by nicehat on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:34PM (#22584923)
Bullshit.

"As an American citizen" - buddy we are not known for our intelligence or our honor so I don't know what relevance you think that has.

And yes there is such a thing as bad press before an election. That's why politicians go to huge lengthsto bury stories before elections.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by linuxlizard on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:47PM (#22585062)
""As an American citizen" - buddy we are not known for our intelligence or our honor so I don't know what relevance you think that has."

Speaking as an American citizen, that cracks me up.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by gamblor956 on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:04PM (#22585248)
If the revelations that Trump has fantasized about incest with his own daughter, cheated on all of his wives, had sex with pornstars and paid them off, bribed government officials, has gone bankrupt multiple times, has been sued by fraud multiple times, is enriching himself using public funds, is accepting money from foreign governments and making political decisions based on that, has attempted to coerce a foreign government into acting against a US citizen, has interfered with criminal investigations, has covered up and destroyed evidence of criminal actions, and is possibly suffering early on-set dementia isn't enough bad press...

What do you think are going to be the actual repercussions, in the US, of learning that the US president is trying to secure exclusive US control of a vaccine for COVID19 for priority distribution in the US?

They aren't going to be any. Indeed, to his base, stuff like this is exactly why they voted for him. (If Trump had succeeded in securing that vaccine solely for the US, he would win in November in a landslide.) And that's pretty much the extent of the calculations that went on in his head when he attempted this stunt.

It's a good thing he failed. But let's be responsible about disclosure and time it so that he can't derive any political benefit from it.

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by zimpenfish on Monday March 16, 2020 @03:05AM (#22590655)
"In a normal presidency, any one of these scandals would have sunk it but with Trump, we get a new one every week and nothing." (I forget but probably someone on Lawyers,Guns,Money.)

[edit: too many "any"]

Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by whatshisface on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:00PM (#22584601)
What would you find in the emails, Trump saying that he prioritizes American wellbeing over everybody else? That might be harsh diplomatically, but that's going to be taken as evidence that he's living up to his promises. That's what he said he was going to do, and almost everybody outside of America disliked him from the beginning of his campaign because he was promising to be not nice to other countries.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by jghn on Sunday March 15, 2020 @02:16PM (#22585360)
Indeed. Regardless of what one thinks in terms of morality, his base will very much view this as a good thing.
Re:USA tried to pay Germans so coronavirus cure vaccine woul... by nicehat on Sunday March 15, 2020 @01:35PM (#22584937)
Is this not a perfect example of why that's such a stupid dangerous mindset?