News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by PureParadigm on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:17PM (#22540419)
I think large decisive moves like this may seem to some to be an overreaction, but it will prove to be the correct decision in hindsight (like the early travel bans). Exponential growth is real, and anything we can do to slow the rate of infection will save lives.

As a current undergrad at UC Berkeley, they've moved all classes here online [1], and exams are either being postponed or converted to take-home assignments. I'm currently accessing lectures through Zoom.

[1] https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/03/09/as-coronavirus-spreads-...

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by smallgovt on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:41PM (#22540654)
Actually, I think it's likely going to be seen as an overreaction in hindsight by the general public (even though it may not be).

If these actions are successful in curbing the virus' spread, most people won't appreciate how bad things could have really gotten.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by rockmeamedee on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @11:52PM (#22542813)
It's a common thread in Incident Response & "Resilience Engineering" that preventative measures that reduce the blast of incidents are always blamed, especially if they work. Whatever ends up working to fix the incident, you should have done it sooner or it was too drastic a response. (No matter the fact that it _did_ fix the incident, outsiders will blame you that way).

One example is the Knight Capital trading disaster, where they eventually noticed (I don't remember the exact number) X minutes after the runway trading bot had been put into place, and shut it down, but got blamed for not shutting down the trading soon enough.

Can't find any links about this right now though :(

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by hateful on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @12:50AM (#22543090)
I see this in Programming/IT a lot. Also a very similar case whereby the person fixing the issue gets pressure to complete the fix and even blame after the fact.

It would be like going to doctor and blaming the doctors for why I was sick.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by afiori on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:46AM (#22544949)
> It would be like going to doctor and blaming the doctors for why I was sick.

To be fair, I am sure doctors experience that a lot.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by dr_zoidberg on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:58AM (#22545011)
It depends. I blame the dentist that fixed my tooth in a substandard way and then I had to have it removed, because the bad fix had it broken a couple of years down the line.

I also blame him because, over the years, other patients of him had trouble for his sloppy work.

I absolutely praise the dentist I went after that one, who made his best to fix everything, explained me the pros and cons of every decision he made, and ultimately got me top notch (as best as could be done).

Sorry for he weird "counterpoint", but the example could be open to ambiguity. I still get the point: don't blame the guy fixing things when it's someone elses responsibility.

In my case: I'd be wrong to blame the 2nd dentist for the mistakes of the 1st.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by afiori on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:09AM (#22545071)
Sure, I just wanted to say that the criticized behavior of blaming the problem on the person that is trying to solve it is something that also happen to doctor. Simply to say that it is not a prerogative of programming or safety.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by dr_zoidberg on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:38AM (#22545255)
Sure, and in retrospective my answer was a bit more to gp than to you.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by magicalhippo on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:10AM (#22544771)
I'm reminded of year 2000. Yes complete overreaction, but I'm also certain it would not have been such a non-event if it weren't for that extreme attention it got.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by bluGill on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:21AM (#22545575)
Most of the bad things predicted by the media wouldn't have happened even if no effort was spent. However there would have been a lot of things not predicted by the media that would have been bad. The bad things the media predicted were easy to put into a sentence, while the bad things that would have happened would take books to explain. They would only really be bad because of the sum total happening all at once.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by asveikau on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:32AM (#22546138)
This.

Everyday people in the leadup to y2k assumed it meant that every computer would somehow explode. Almost nobody stopped to actually reason through the real life consequence of a program getting the date and time wrong.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by dr_zoidberg on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:54AM (#22544986)
You mean Y2K? Yeah I remember there was even a Simpson episode about it being absolute chaos (one of the Tree House Horror episodes). And then pretty much "nothing happened" (a few ATMs here and there spitting money randomly, a few funny incidents, but nothing of scale) and the world thought IT people had been paranoid over nothing.

Fast forward to 2020, we still have Feb 29 bugs around (I saw a few posted on twitter, none in person). The response back then was huge and adequate, but totally underappreciated as time went by.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by trakter on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:04AM (#22545444)
One of the Feb 29 bugs I saw this year was that when I logged on to Skype for Business Monday March 2nd, everyone in my company that had logged off their computers on Friday Feb 28th, had a message about being offline for anywhere between 20-40 days. It just didn't know how to handle that day.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by whatshisface on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:56AM (#22546337)
There is one thing that will help avoid some of this: across every county, state, and nation, there will be differing levels of response, and when it's all over it will be clear who got their medical systems overwhelmed as a result of denialism, and who wasted a bunch of money due to alarmism.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:16AM (#22545538)
"Everything we do before a pandemic will seem alarmist. Everything we do after will seem inadequate" --M. Leavitt DHHS
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by pbourke on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:50PM (#22540736)
Yeah, I've been thinking something similar.

In the American context, a successful response would be seen by the uninformed as an overreaction. The administration responsible (federal or state) would be blamed for the economic damage and voted out.

It would take a very strong leader who was willing to act without thought to reelection to really meet the crisis head on. That would be ... rare.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by fudged71 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:52PM (#22542504)
>a successful response would be seen by the uninformed as an overreaction

This is what worries me the most. Is there a name for this bias? Seems similar to survivorship bias, I'm sure it's seen across all kinds of contexts.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by easytiger on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:46AM (#22545303)
Have you thought about inverting your thinking? Every pandemic this century ended up being a damp squib despite WHO et al promising doomsday.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by eropple on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:06AM (#22545937)
Did they end up being a "damp squib", or were corrective and protective measures implemented to slow them sufficiently so as to control them before they became endemic?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by Jill_the_Pill on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:55AM (#22546317)
It may be that when the Boy Cried Wolf, the wolf didn't show up precisely because the villagers had turned out with torches and successfully scared it away, unseen.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by easytiger on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:18AM (#22546531)
Damp squib
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by eropple on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:31AM (#22546636)
And your rationale for that characterization is...?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by easytiger on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:10PM (#22563012)
The WHO predicted that 150 million people would be killed by avian flu [1]. Nothing happened. They predicted 750,000 people would die in the UK, it was more like 200. For swine flu it was minimum possible deaths of 11k but up to 70k. It was more like 400. They got upset when people wouldn't use their case fatality rates which turned out very wrong. Over half a million people died of flu related deaths last year. Don't recall reading a single news article about it

1, https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/emergency....

2, https://jech.bmj.com/content/62/6/555.abstract

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by throwaway2048 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @02:23PM (#22548669)
He is all over these threads downplaying the seriousness of this virus, best to just ignore him.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by eropple on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:50PM (#22549779)
I'm aware. That's why I responded to him. Because it's better to confront this kind of mendacity.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by admax88q on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:47AM (#22545780)
Was it the WHO promising doomsday? Or the media reporting on it?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by easytiger on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:18AM (#22546526)
The WHO
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by Polylactic_acid on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:05PM (#22542249)
>a successful response would be seen by the uninformed as an overreaction.

Seems likely. Since solving the problem would make it look like there was no problem in which case what was the point of all the work.

This is also one of those cases where you have to overreact to begin with because once you have an actual problem its too late.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by tim333 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:21AM (#22545146)
Places like Singapore and Taiwan have had successful responses and the locals seem happy with them. The US response re testing is just awful. (I've just read the NYT article https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...)
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by zanderwohl on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:23PM (#22542344)
I think you're right, and that economic damage is something I think too many people are worried about. I've seen a lot of business magazines more worried about the dow-jones than the number of people who could die.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by chrisco255 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:50PM (#22540735)
So what do we do if this virus festers for another couple of years? We can't shut down society forever.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by Trasmatta on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @07:00PM (#22540857)
The goal at this point should be to flatten the curve as much as possible to prevent overwhelming healthcare until a vaccine is developed and tested. Nobody thinks this is going to be a permanent measure.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by fspeech on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @08:53PM (#22541813)
Or even just more personal protective gears for medical personnel, more isolation wards, and more ventilators could be readied. The medical system can be built up and reconfigured to take care of this disease but it needs time.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by andrejk on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:22AM (#22544828)
A good analysis on this point from a public health perspective: https://www.flattenthecurve.com/
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by xur17 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @07:18PM (#22541044)
I don't disagree with the flattening the curve bit, but I do wonder - my understanding is that a vaccine is at minimum a year out. Would we need to keep doing this for that entire time period, or are there other factors at play here?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by Gibbon1 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @08:03PM (#22541454)
I think that there is a rough relation between the infection rate and the percent of the population that gets infected.

Consider raw r0 of 3.0. Each case infects three other people. But as more and more of the population gets infected and acquires immunity the infection rate drops. Say half the population is immune due to prior infection. The rate is now half r0 = 3.0 * 0.5 Left unchecked 66% of the population will get infected and then the disease dies out.

Social distancing, hand washing, quarantine reduces r0. And reduces the total number that the virus can infect before is dies out. Cut r0 from 3.0 to 1.5 and the number of infected goes from 66% to 33%.

In the US that would be 100 million people. And maybe a million fewer deaths.

Scuttlebutt is China and Taiwan due to high early compliance have r0 down to about 0.3, which means the epidemic is in a state of exponential crash.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by pfranz on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:17PM (#22542316)
There are shortages in the supply chain; hand sanitizer, masks, and tests for coronavirus in addition to overwhelming hospitals by sick people. If there aren't open beds or staff (ideally who aren't overworked), people who otherwise would get medical attention will die.

If a vaccine wasn't even in the picture flattening the curve would help with these things.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by xur17 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:24PM (#22542353)
That's a good point. Also, my understanding is that antiviral medications might be an option in a "few" months.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by bluGill on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:24AM (#22545587)
There are a lot of things in the future. Antivirals show promise of working in a few months - but we don't actually know they will work (or for that matter that the virus won't evolve a new unique resistance to them). It will take time to figure out what works best for treatment.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by empath75 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:00PM (#22541869)
They can just slow it down and prevent hospital systems from becoming overwhelmed. A lot of people will get immunity to it, which should confer some herd immunity that will protect older people.

They’re eventually going to lift quarantines after it burns out in different areas.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by tim333 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:23AM (#22545163)
Maybe there will be vaccines, better treatment.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by rellui on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @07:13PM (#22540989)
In this case though we've examples of how bad it can get. Iran comes to mind. As this progresses we'll see what happens to countries who didn't attempt any quarantine or drastic measures at all.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by bluGill on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:25AM (#22545596)
That won't be the US though which is already quietly quarantining things. Conferences are being postponed. Companies are stopping all non-emergency travel. Nursing homes are not allowing visitors.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by pfranz on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:20PM (#22542332)
Hopefully, we'll see articles like the recent articles talking about how closing schools during the 1918 flu saved lives. Specifically, closing schools before there were any identified cases were much more effective than waiting until one was detected.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by Trasmatta on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:58PM (#22540836)
So a Y2K style hindsight? I wonder if there is a phrase for that type of thing.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by DoofusOfDeath on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:21PM (#22541978)
"Closing the barn door after the horses have left" ?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by Ensorceled on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:09AM (#22544524)
Closing the barn door before the horses leave and being blamed for the barn being too warm is actually what is happening.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by fuckknows on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:16PM (#22549999)
It depends on how bad it gets, if people are dying by the thousand I think the conventional wisdom will be we should have done more. Even with these measures I fear it wont be nearly enough to avert catastrophe.
[dead]
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by sethaurus on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:01PM (#22542220)
Is this an accepted view among historians? I'd like to know more about that.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by AlexCoventry on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @12:49AM (#22543083)
There was a widespread, mostly inaccurate perception in the West that Japan's incredible territory gains early in the war must have been due to fifth-column agents preparing the battleground.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30036444

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by cm2187 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:29AM (#22545191)
Hum. On the other side it is the story of the madman holding an umbrella in the middle of the summer. Someone asks him why he is holding an umbrella, it's not raining. He answers that it is to keep pink elephants from flying around. But there aren't any pink elephant flying. The madman responds: you see, it works.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by whyenot on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @06:46PM (#22540697)
It should be noted that they have not moved lab classes online. For someone in the sciences, much of your classroom time is spent in lab classes. Unfortunately, there isn’t a good way to teach students how to run a gel, or do a titration, or identify minerals, etc. without in-person instruction.

There are students who are graduating this spring and the skills they learn in upper division or capstone lab classes are some of the most important skills they will learn at school. You can’t just cancel the classes (or those students won’t graduate), you can’t do a very good job at all teaching them online... What can you do? We haven’t figured it out here at my institution, and it looks like nobody else has figured it out.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by blendo on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:09PM (#22541920)
Nor will in-person, small group seminars be moved on-line. It might be fairer to just extend spring break for 2-3 months, and pick up the semester again in May or June.

Or, refund this semesters’s tuition, room, and board, and give everyone a do-over until next fall. (I am assuming the virus will burn out in 2-3 months.)

Maybe the best outcome would be radically improve remote learning, this time with full institutional support.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by eropple on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:09AM (#22545955)
> I am assuming the virus will burn out in 2-3 months.

This is a really optimistic assumption. I hope you're right, but I would hope no political unit is making plans based on it.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by whatshisface on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:53AM (#22546300)
Actually, that's extremely pessimistic. Unchecked exponential growth until it slams in to the population ceiling is both the worst-case scenario for fatalities, and also the scenario that would finish in three months.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by fuckknows on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:21PM (#22550059)
Assuming that immunity lasts for an extended period or indefinitely, which we have no way of knowing yet.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by asiachick on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:46AM (#22544168)
Apparently during the Spanish flu cities that closed their schools early had 1/2 as many deaths as cities that waited until the first confirmed cars showed up in their city.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by fwipsy on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @08:12PM (#22541505)
So far, I've heard that UCSD, UCSC, UC Davis, and Stanford have taken similar precautions to Berkeley.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by kart23 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:02PM (#22541881)
UC Irvine as well!

Not excited to install a rootkit on my computer to take finals, but oh well.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by pfranz on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @10:24PM (#22542355)
Any option to install it onto a VM or a separate drive for dual boot? Windows 10 VMs are active for a few weeks (or edu discounts are often pretty steep). If it was in a VM you otherwise use you can snapshot and revert back after taking the test (I guess you could do this with a normal backup, too). That's usually my go-to for stuff like this (but for me it's often Linux/macOS).
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by kart23 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @01:24AM (#22543224)
VMs and Linux aren't allowed, and apparently the software can detect if you're using either. I'm probably gonna use my macbook for it, but I just hate willingly installing such garbage.

https://www.proctoru.com/proctoru-live-resource-center

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by en-us on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:36AM (#22544621)
Perhaps partition your hard drive then and dual boot? Then reclaim the Windows partition after the program is no longer needed.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by dTal on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:14AM (#22544796)
Requires Adobe Flash? What is this garbage?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by saagarjha on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:21AM (#22545151)
Can you pretend to exclusively use a Chromebook as your computing device?
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by SkyBelow on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:23AM (#22545581)
What does the rootkit even achieve? People can easily have a second laptop available.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by curryst on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:59AM (#22546358)
I took a quick glance at their website and it says:

"No non-religious head coverings"

Which makes me think that they record a video of you while you're taking it, which is kind of eerie.

That being said, it won't stop anyone who has a USB webcam you can just unplug, unless the software requires you to have a webcam plugged in and pointed in the right direction.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by dylz on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:52AM (#22553908)
For higher value tests:

- Someone will watch you

- The entire session is recorded

- You hold up multiple forms of ID and rotate it / tilt it

- It's effectively a keylogger + mouse tracker + eye tracker + ..., basically malware

- Triggering any security features like looking "to the side or down" will result in human intervention asking you to do a 360 degree view of your room

- You are not permitted to cover or pause the video stream and you may be randomly asked to do things like blink or hold up fingers

- Yes, they can remote control your device

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by hnick on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:07PM (#22552154)
No need to unplug when a piece of tape or folded paper will do it. I'd be more worried about the microphone.

Unless maybe the requirement is to catch you looking elsewhere?

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by whatshisface on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:55AM (#22546315)
Or a phone...
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by fuckknows on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:22PM (#22550073)
Also true for the California State universities and community colleges in the bay area.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by qchris on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @12:02AM (#22542866)
UCSB has joined that list as well.
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by awal2 on Tuesday March 10, 2020 @09:07PM (#22541908)
+University of Washington
Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by chadash on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:40AM (#22544922)
This might normally be true, but in this case, there will be some countries that overreact and some that don't. The ones that do will see what happened in the ones that don't and it will be harder for the former to be upset since they can observe the difference.

Israel is the best example right now. They have the strongest reaction of any country, essentially closing their borders, but their people don't seem to be outraged, at least not yet.

Re:MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester by classified on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:34AM (#22546158)
Security measures are always an "overreaction", until they aren't.