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Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by wutbrodo on Sunday March 01, 2020 @09:07PM (#22460991)
> I get that a lot of people on HN probably see the current low wages as a natural function of supply and demand in different academic disciplines. But heck, just looking at this from the point of view of the university, which is allocating resources to fight this, the calculus is odd.

Note that I'm not making any _moral or normative claims_ about not striking vs striking vs wildcat striking, nor about the interplay of rights and obligations between individual workers, unions, and employers. I'm speaking purely strategically here, in the same frame as your comment.

You're only looking at first-order dynamics here, while second-order ones are often in play. In this case, the 54 students weren't just striking, they were wildcat-striking: striking in defiance of not just the university they work for, but the union that represents them, who had already agreed to a contract with the university.

When the union has already agreed to, ratified, and entered into a contract, capitulating to a wildcat strike a couple of years later is a significant departure from even relatively pro-labor norms. Again, from a purely strategic perspective, the costs of this specific incident are potentially a lot less significant than the future costs of the university signaling that they're okay with contracts becoming meaningless if the other party changes their mind in the middle of the term.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by Karishma1234fff on Monday March 02, 2020 @02:45AM (#22462473)
I think your analysis is spot on.

This is all about what principle you are applying and whether it scales or not. It is a bit like restraining order. In some specific instances it might be safe to let the person in your house. However that kind of hurts the overall restraining order terms and sometime in future you can get into trouble.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by kova12 on Sunday March 01, 2020 @10:10PM (#22461307)
Which just underlies the problem with unions: not only they are compulsory institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by wahern on Monday March 02, 2020 @01:39AM (#22462201)
Compulsory union membership has been illegal since the 1947 Taft-Hartey Act. Compulsory legal representation fees for public sector unions have been illegal since Janus v. AFSCME (2018).

Just like in a democracy, not everybody's interests can be fully satisfied in a union. So what? That doesn't necessarily mean we'd all be better off with autocracy or without any government whatsoever, not even the people getting the short end of the stick.

The fundamental problem in Santa Cruz, like many other universities in the state, is the cost of housing. UC Santa Cruz didn't build enough housing. Part of the problem is that most of UCSC's land is wildlife refuge, and part of the problem (like everywhere else in California) is the political and regulatory difficulty of building new housing. The cost of housing has been increasing far faster than UCSC's budget.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by SpicyLemonZest on Monday March 02, 2020 @07:03AM (#22463676)
Unions still have many monopolistic legal rights. For example, one obvious question is why UCSC students can’t form their own union and get their own contract; the answer is that it would be illegal, because if there’s a duly authorized union employers can’t collectively bargain with any other group.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by TrinaryWorksToo on Monday March 02, 2020 @04:01PM (#22468937)
Why couldn't people call a new vote for the new union?
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by SpicyLemonZest on Monday March 02, 2020 @04:10PM (#22469014)
That would also be illegal right now, since it hasn't been 3 years since the union contract was signed.

ref: https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employees/i...

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by ivalm on Monday March 02, 2020 @12:46PM (#22466742)
This is not entirely true. UCSC determines its own admission, they could have simply not increased the student body and their housing would have been sufficient.

I know the same thing is happening at UCSD, where the student body exploded in size and despite additional housing being built, it is insufficient and very expensive.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by jdm2212 on Sunday March 01, 2020 @10:19PM (#22461362)
Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. A union-negotiated contract that's better than the one you'd get without the union is, well, better. It might not be "fair" or flawless, but it's still better.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by kortilla on Monday March 02, 2020 @01:07AM (#22462069)
Unless it’s worse. The assumption that forming a union and entering into effectively hostile negotiations with the company will result in a better compensation is unfounded.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by jdm2212 on Monday March 02, 2020 @01:44AM (#22462218)
It varies by country and even in the US it varies by industry. A lot of European countries have a less adversarial relationship between organized labor and management and workers benefit greatly. Public sector unions in the US, and the teamsters, and Culinary in Las Vegas, etc. don't seem to leave their workers worse off either.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by simonh on Monday March 02, 2020 @03:38AM (#22462713)
It's perfectly founded, because I have seen it happen. Back in the 80s was a Thatcher believer, still am really, but in the 90s I was a member of a moderate public sector union in the UK and saw it working from the inside. It was a real eye opener, the union had huge experience in health and safety (a significant issue in that organisation), the unintended side effects of various policies and procedures, all sorts of things and actually worked very well with management to represent legitimate concerns.

It doesn't always work, in some industries I can see the relationship is much more confrontational and damaging, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by kortilla on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:37PM (#22521493)
It can’t be “perfectly founded“ if it “doesn’t always work”.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by diffeomorphism on Monday March 02, 2020 @05:25AM (#22463193)
> The assumption ... is unfounded.

Considering that many, many countries exist where this is the case (most of the time), this seems to be very well founded.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by kortilla on Monday March 09, 2020 @10:38PM (#22532272)
But they were in a country where the relationship has been bad since the beginning
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by blaser-waffle on Monday March 02, 2020 @11:14AM (#22465661)
I would say it's mostly better most of the time; they can go badly. Obligatory Futurama quote to illustrate the point:

> Hermes: So you're telling me I could fire my whole staff and hire Grunka Lunkas at half the cost?

> Glurmo: That's right. They think they have a good union but they don't. [whispering] They're basically slaves.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by corinroyal on Monday March 02, 2020 @11:32AM (#22465867)
Says a guy who never bothered to learn labor history, but feels he must know better anyway because somebody pays him good money for something. HN in a nutshell.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by kortilla on Monday March 09, 2020 @10:40PM (#22532279)
I find it hard to believe anyone that knows anything about labor history in the US could assume that company/union relations can be assumed to go well.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by wutbrodo on Monday March 02, 2020 @01:33AM (#22462173)
> even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

Again without implying anything normative, what makes you claim that the students' representation by the union isn't "fair"? Simply because they want more than stipulated by the contract the union was able to negotiate? Is my (non-union) salary "unfair" because I'd much rather get paid 3x as much (or 30x, for that matter)?

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by Karishma1234fff on Monday March 02, 2020 @02:38AM (#22462434)
>not only they are compulsory institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

That is very definition of 'Unions'. As an individual you have limited resources to take on a big adversary (employer) hence few people come together and pool in money. If this process is voluntary it is entirely up-to them to come up with the terms of engagement. Once you agree to those terms going back on those terms must be seen as dishonesty. If the union membership is forces them obviously union leaders have zero incentives to actually offer better terms to members.

The only way this can be resolved is by having some kind of "enlightened" union leadership. The superhumans who will instantly know what is the right thing to do and will have 100% freedom to do so. Sadly, such humans are very very rare.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by thrwaway69 on Monday March 02, 2020 @04:59AM (#22463064)
Maybe. Unions like democracy are a compromise. Though, I always wonder why do so many people here (despite not being in a tech union or majorly working in industries without them most likely) push for it so much?

Can anyone give me their actual experience being in a union that's not in the tech industry?

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by JamesBarney on Monday March 02, 2020 @05:11AM (#22463114)
The AMA has done an amazing job at representing the interests of doctors
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by exhilaration on Monday March 02, 2020 @07:02AM (#22463673)
But that's a lobbying organization - and yes, a very successful one at all levels of government. They're not involved in pay and contract negotiations at your local hospital.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by dantheman on Monday March 02, 2020 @09:41AM (#22464775)
They've successfully limited the supply of doctors to artificially increase wages.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by blaser-waffle on Monday March 02, 2020 @11:15AM (#22465679)
True, but as someone with a surgery looming I'd much have someone who had to go through a 6-year training process then a simple 4 year one.

Like, medical mistakes are already crazy common -- and that's with the strict barriers of entry.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by unethical_ban on Sunday March 01, 2020 @10:16PM (#22461343)
Define "fair representation"

And, tell me how not having any union is better for all than an imperfect union.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday March 01, 2020 @10:39PM (#22461471)
> tell me how not having any union is better for all than an imperfect union.

Obvious answer: No dues. Not commenting on whether that's a good tradeoff, mind, but it's an answer.

Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by kortilla on Monday March 02, 2020 @01:09AM (#22462071)
Higher compensation, no protection for incompetent people, reward for productivity and innovation instead of seniority, etc.
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by shitgoose on Sunday March 01, 2020 @11:01PM (#22461550)
Is there a union of software developers? Would you like to start an imperfect one? Anyone?
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by inferiorhuman on Monday March 02, 2020 @05:07AM (#22463104)
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by shitgoose on Monday March 02, 2020 @09:04PM (#22471195)
Both articles indicate that unionization has flopped. The broader question is - what is the purpose of unionization in the software industry? You want more money? You want ping pong tables at work?
Re:UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking fo... by int_19h on Monday March 02, 2020 @12:24AM (#22461865)
Starting one is fairly risky. A better question might be, how many people would join an established one.