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Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by lisper on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @01:43AM (#22420900)
Seasonal flu kills hundreds of thousands of people every year and we barely talk about that.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by watwut on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:20AM (#22421058)
Mortality of flu is over 0.1%, with coronavirus it is over 2%. And flu has shorter incubation time. That is massive difference.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by baq on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:01AM (#22421247)
2% may be still too high, it might even be high sub 1% (e.g. .7%), but the big problem is how many of cases require hospitalization and especially intensive care. if number of ICU patients grows 10x in one month, we're all in trouble and that's seemingly what happened in China.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by watwut on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:07PM (#22427335)
The numbers I have seen were between 2% and 3%, higher for males and lower for females. I did not seen sub 1% anywhere.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by trengorilla on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:55AM (#22423424)
I don't understand how this figure keeps getting quoted.

Out of cases that have been fully resolved we're now at an 8% mortality rate. 2% is counting ongoing cases, that's not the figure you should be looking at.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by bart_spoon on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:25AM (#22423746)
Because the 8% mortality rate is based on resolved cases, and it generally takes people longer to fully recover than it does to die, so it is skewed upwards. A couple of weeks ago, the same mortality figure was near 30%, because most people with the disease who were not going to die hadn't had time to recover yet. Things are still early enough that the 8% figure will continue to go down.

Additionally, it is widely acknowledged that the actual number of cases is undercounted, with the mildest cases less likely to have been tested and included in those numbers, again resulting in overly high numbers.

And finally, it would appear that Wuhan in particular is skewing the numbers higher, as being the site of the outbreak it was caught off guard and has struggled to manage the number of cases. Elsewhere in both China and the world, the death rate is far lower.

The estimate of 8% is unquestionably much too high. Exactly what the mortality rate is will still take more time to discover.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by trengorilla on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:44AM (#22423969)
Thanks.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by pengaru on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:23AM (#22421065)
Or mosquitoes and the malaria they spread...

Malaria was responsible 405,000 deaths globally in 2018 according to [0].

[0] https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/world-m...

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by djmips on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:51AM (#22421200)
How many people do you know with malaria? It's a tropical region disease. In a pandemic of Covid-19, it is going to affect people all over the world in every region.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by adventured on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:15AM (#22421322)
> How many people do you know with malaria? It's a tropical region disease.

Malaria is not inherently a tropical region disease. It routinely plagued Europe until the 1950s. Russia for one example had a huge Malaria outbreak in the early 1920s as did Eastern Europe broadly.

"Gustavo Pittaluga (1876-1956) estimated that in 1923, 18 million people suffered from malaria in Russia, and that sixty thousand deaths occurred out of a total population of about 110 million (Anigstein, Pittaluga, 1925). Similar observations were made throughout the whole of eastern and south-eastern Europe and the former Ottoman Empire."

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0104...

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by iso1210 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:44AM (#22421679)
> It's a tropical region disease

Europe and the U.S. used to have Malaria. The name -- bad air -- is Latin, the Romans thought it originated from bad swamp air. Shakespeare mentioned it time and time again in his plays.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by mrec on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:07AM (#22422535)
> Shakespeare mentioned it time and time again in his plays

I'm pretty sure what Shakespeare was referencing is a much more general idea prevalent in his day - that smells (not necessarily unpleasant ones) could be poisonous, and could be warded off by opposing "good" smells. This roughly coincided with an explosion of scented-good manufacturing as a cottage industry, although I'm not sure which way the arrow of causation ran there.

</digression>

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by _ph_ on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:31AM (#22421867)
Yes, but malaria isn't transmitted between humans but requires a certain mosquito to spread. So unless that mosquito reappears (which is an actual threat due to climate change), the malaria isn't randomly spreading to other countries. But the corona virus doesn't have these bariers as it spreads from humans to humans.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by iso1210 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:16AM (#22423642)
Yes, I guess my point was that malaria can and has existed in europe and america. It is defeated by 1) Wiping out mosquitos (DDT)

2) Limiting chance of mosquitoes biting people (aircon)

3) Limiting the population with malaria (the fewer people with malaria, the less chance of a given mosquito biting someone with malaria and thus becoming a carrier)

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by tremon on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:06AM (#22422992)
the Romans thought it originated from bad swamp air

...which actually isn't that far-fetched for a pre-medical society to conclude, given that mosquitoes breed in warm, still waters.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by ggm on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:05AM (#22421276)
How many people do you know with malaria? It's a tropical region disease.

No. The name is Italian. It predates Italian colonies in the tropics. It's a disease which was endemic in marshlands believed to be caused by bad air Mal aria and was in Scotland amongst other places.

Malaria is not exclusively tropical. Nor is dengue or mosquito borne encephalitis. Tropical wet regions sustain mosquitos. So do cooler climates.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by pengaru on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:59AM (#22421236)
The parent mentioned Zika, any such list including Zika would be incomplete without Malaria as well.

I agree that covid-19 seems to have a larger potential breadth, and didn't intend to downplay its significance.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by baq on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:02AM (#22421258)
the best part in this all might be that chloroquine, an anti malaria drug, apparently is effective against covid-19.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by numpad0 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:35AM (#22422131)
Is it that anti malaria or HIV drug happens to be effective or are those weak poisons used in the hope that the subject individual outlive the pathogens under its influence
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by samastur on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:19AM (#22421051)
Yes, because it infects so many millions. Covid-19 right now looks a magnitude more deadly with significant long term health consequences for many who survive.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by _-___________-_ on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:50AM (#22421194)
> a magnitude more deadly

Probably not. Case fatality rates don't accurately show the "deadliness" since many people have likely been infected but been asymptomatic or had mild illness that didn't cause them to seek medical advice.

> significant long term health consequences for many who survive

There is no evidence for that, and it doesn't make sense given the available data. Some number of people have long-term health consequences, and if you only compare that number to the number of people who went to hospital with serious illness, you might see a high percentage, but that's a huge distortion of reality.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by mrb on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @03:17AM (#22421326)
Yes, it is a magnitude deadlier than the flu.

We now have 4 independent estimates that place the Infection Fatality Ratio at about 0.5% to 1.7% which is between 5x and 17x deadlier than the flu (0.1%): https://twitter.com/zorinaq/status/1230977769795776512 Incidentally, this makes COVID19 comparable to the 1918 Spanish Flu (IFR ~2%) according to experts (see link above). And keep in mind the IFR, unlike the CFR, is the metric that takes into account undetected mild or asymptomatic cases.

«There is no evidence for that»

There is, see https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... : In those who survive intensive care, [...] aberrant and excessive immune responses lead to long-term lung damage and fibrosis, causing functional disability and reduced quality of life.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by samastur on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:38AM (#22421651)
I agree that exact rates are difficult to determine, will change over time and one should not overreact, but there is plenty of evidence for what I said. If this virus would be just like flu, then Wuhan wouldn't have much problem coping.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by _-___________-_ on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:55AM (#22421969)
If it was a brand new flu, to which people had no immunity, which was initially covered up and then largely "responded to" by crowding everyone who might possibly have been infected into overcrowded, shared quarantine centres where they are now virtually guaranteed to get it, I bet they would have the same problem coping.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by djmips on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:56AM (#22421223)
> Probably not. Case fatality rates don't accurately show the "deadliness" since many people have likely been infected but been asymptomatic or had mild illness that didn't cause them to seek medical advice.

I agree with this point but would also like to point out the possibility that way more people get infected by SARS-CoV-2 than the flu.

I also want to note that the flu also has the same asymptomatic or mild illness factor and that the deadliness would be only comparing people who sought medical treatment.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by cm2187 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:51AM (#22421711)
Agree, I hate to quote Trump, but there seems to be many “doomers” among us, who seem to take some kind of pleasure in entertaining the idea that we are in the middle of some big disaster. For the moment the numbers I see (mentioned in my other post [1]) seem to support something slightly worse than the common flu, but nothing that should be really concerning.

Also the comparison to the Spanish flu often ignores the fact that we are way better equipped to deal with the symptoms than in 1918.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22421649

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by DanBC on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:19AM (#22421820)
I don't know about you but I'm bombarded every year with campaigns to get people immunised, and the meetings I go to talk about availability of the vaccine for the public, and for healthcare professionals, and how many professionals have been vaccinated so far and how we can ethically increase that number, and on top of that every year for the past however long in the English NHS there's been a lot of talk about winter pressure.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by lisper on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:13AM (#22424273)
Fair enough, but there is nonetheless a lot more hand-wringing about covid-19 than there is about seasonal flu despite the fact that the total number of covid cases is still less than the number of annual flu deaths.

Covid is very serious and we should not be complacent about it. But I think it's important to keep some perspective, especially since we seem to be on the brink of shutting down the entire global economy.

Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by rixrax on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @02:33AM (#22421108)
Yes it does. After we have vaccinated vast amounts of global population with flu vaccines that mostly work. Try flu without vaccination and potentially 10x mortality rate: CoVid-19.
Re:Tokyo Olympics “looking at a cancellation” if coronavirus... by lisper on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:23AM (#22424386)
Maybe. We don't actually know how many mild or asymptomatic cases of covid are out there, and so we don't know what the mortality rate is. 2% is an upper bound, but almost certainly not the true mortality rate.

I'm not saying that we should not take covid very seriously. I'm just saying that before we allow it to shut down the global economy we ought to maintain some perspective on the magnitude of the risks society already faces year-in and year-out.