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Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by Jonnax on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @07:46AM (#22412693)
I think part of the negativity you see is network admins working in businesses.

Their opinion is that it's a way for people to get around corporate firewalls. Kinda blind to the idea that if a browser can implement DNS over HTTPS then anything can.

Especially since there's some of ways that Mozilla have implemented for a local area DNS server to override its settings.

There's also another camp, if you remember the "internet villain of the year" award that Mozilla got for DNS over HTTPS from an ISP industry group.

Of course their argument was parental controls being made ineffective.

But of course it's transparent that this was a gambit to change public opinion so they can keep collecting browsing data to sell.

Interesting to note they went after Mozilla not Google who are also implementing it.

But really the messed up thing is that this improves privacy for the vast majority of users. Especially those people around the world where searching the wrong thing up online can lead to imprisonment or worse.

This kind of thing is a privacy improvement for millions.

And I find it shocking that people in Business IT care more about managing their corporate devices than the good of the majority of internet users.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by userbinator on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @08:10AM (#22412864)
I'm not a network admin working in a business, but I am the network admin of my home network, and I really do not want applications starting to effectively contain their own VPN clients and subverting my control.
Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by Jonnax on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @08:20AM (#22412932)
DNS isn't a VPN nor really a security product. It's just a look up table.

The job blocking domains should be the job of a firewall. Of course this becomes more complex. But any application can implement DNS over HTTPS.

Malware could even just get a list of IPs from another IP.

An application can even just hard code IPs rather than using DNS and then they're in the same position.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by userbinator on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @08:26AM (#22412973)
Tunneling DNS inside HTTPS effectively forms part of a VPN already (and I wonder when Mozilla will decide to also stuff the rest of the traffic through...)

DNS-based blocking is not perfect, but is currently still very powerful for things like adblocking.

You're basically saying that Firefox is now behaving like malware, which I agree with...

Windows 10's telemetry is also another piece of software which has started to become hostile in this manner, hardcoding IPs and such.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by silon42 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @08:58AM (#22413189)
Exactly. To control DoH we need to start to MITM all connections and block everthing else unless whitelisted.
Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by EvanAnderson on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @12:58PM (#22415409)
For home network operators who value controlling the name resolution of devices they 'own' MITM won't be enough once embedded device manufacturers start using certificate pinning w/ DoH.
Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by silon42 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:58AM (#22420676)
Obviously, there will be a choice not to buy them / keep them offline.
Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by kibwen on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @09:09AM (#22413284)
> I wonder when Mozilla will decide to also stuff the rest of the traffic through

Mozilla has recently begun offering an integrated VPN with Firefox, though unlike DoH that has a monthly subscription fee (hell, I don't blame them for wanting to diversify their revenue). The partner in that case is Mullvad.

> You're basically saying that Firefox is now behaving like malware

This is hyperbole. End users should look out for their own best interests by using any means necessary, which includes hiding as much as they can from the network. If the network doesn't like that, then it has the choice not to allow that user to attach a device to the network.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by judge2020 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @10:13AM (#22413770)
It's the inherent problem of your network position being between a device and the outside internet, the same position that browser activity-selling, website blocking ISPs are. The only difference is that previously, DNS would be unencrypted so you could DPI dns and/or block DNS requests going outside of your custom resolver. If an attacker wanted to hide DNS previously, they would need a hard-coded IP address to send encrypted requests to; now they can use big providers like CF/Google for DoH.
Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by maeln on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @10:18AM (#22413815)
If you don't want DoH, you are not forced to use it. Yes its enabled by default, but it doesn't mean you cannot go into the settings menu and deactivate it.
Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @11:05AM (#22414243)
Hmm, unless you're trying to control what comes in/out your home network .. in which case you're screwed. But you can switch it off in your own browser.

I was a happy pihole user. I could choose to allow DNS lookups, and blacklist using OpenDNS. If I install Firefox at home, then I can't block problematic sites; and Cloudflare will use this to sell the idea to advertiser for TVs and such, so it looks like Google/Cloudflare just used Firefox to obviate ad blocking.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by maeln on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:09AM (#22421776)
I also use PiHole at home, and lets be honest, if we know how to setup a PiHole, deactivating Firefox DoH is not going to be a problem for us.

DoH is not meant for us, it is meant for the average people who have no tech background. Just because it will cost us a few minutes to configure, we shouldn't deny the overall benefit it will bring to most.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by unionpivo on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @10:27AM (#22413884)
> Their opinion is that it's a way for people to get around corporate firewalls. Kinda blind to the idea that if a browser can implement DNS over HTTPS then anything can.

Thats not the problem. If more application folow Firefox, and do DNS on their own, corporate applications and sites will stop working, and IT will get the blame.

Now that it's just firefox, ok, but if other app will follow the lead, we will constantly have to play whack a mole, why someone doesn't resolve correctly.

How do I debug problems ?

Is there a tool (something like dig), i can use to see, how will Firefox resolve a domain ?

Where i work we don't block anything on our firewall, but we have plenty of services only exposed on internal DNS. Not to mention, we have to a lot of times replicate environment that is similar to clients, so I often create zones, where people can VPN in, and have similar DNS resolution as the target. Each app doing its own DNS will make that harder.

> Especially those people around the world where searching the wrong thing up online can lead to imprisonment or worse

That would be true, if Mozilla rolled this out worldwide, but its US only.

Also right now there are bazillion ISP with bazillion DNS servers.

There are very few DOH DNS providers that Mozilla endorses, so if majority of "privacy" conscious people will start using them, it will become that more valuable for various bad actors to compromise them. Right now there are so many ISP's with their own DNS's that even if all of them were selling the data, just finding them all and buying their data would be huge task.

This is another centralization of previously decentralized service. (like it happened with email)

Honestly I think that in the long run, this will be worse for privacy that we have now.

Re:Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs by zoonosis on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @11:58AM (#22414801)
> I think part of the negativity you see is network admins working in businesses.

They can block the canary domain[1].

> Of course their argument was parental controls being made ineffective.

DoH is disabled on Windows and macOS if parental controls are enabled[1].

[1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/configuring-networks-di...