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Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by dangus on Monday February 24, 2020 @08:07AM (#22403665)
I wish the article was a little more technically competent. It leaves out a lot of other important projects in this space like PinePhone, LineageOS, and even the proprietary alternative of Sailfish.

I also take issue with a lot of articles talking about data collection as the boogeyman without actually explaining how data collection happens and how to minimize it.

You don’t have to actually get rid of Apple or Google, which can massively handicap the usability of your device, to gain some semblance of privacy. There are a lot of simple changes to be made:

- Turning off location history in Google and Apple Maps

- Auditing Google/Apple/social media account privacy settings

- Make sure you’re on a recent/the latest Android version

- Audit and minimize app permissions

- Uninstall apps that you don’t need or have web alternatives

- Installing content blockers on web browsers

- Set up a PiHole

- On Android, you could switch to an alternative App Store like F-Droid

I suggest these sorts of thing only because these projects, while very admirable, are years away from being viable alternatives. Most smartphone users outside the technically inclined would absolutely not make the trade-offs required to live with something like a Librem or even giving up Google Play on LineageOS.

The other issue I take with articles like this is that they fail to understand the value that data collection can provide to consumers as well. A lot of useful features actually depend on using your data. The assumption that the consumer is unhappy about this trade-off is not necessarily correct.

A great example of that concept is how Google and Apple use aggregated location information to determine traffic conditions. This is a highly useful feature to most smartphone owners. It would be impossible to implement without collecting location data.

That’s just one example of many. In many ways the utility of the smartphone outshines the personal computer precisely because it can gather more data from more sensors to be put to use.

Fighting Apple and Google with alternatives is a losing battle if you ask me - privacy will never be protected until strong regulations with real teeth become universal.

In reality, there will never be more than two smartphone operating systems that any significant number of the public use. If you don’t believe me just look to the personal computer world - in 30 years has any operating system gained any more traction than Windows or macOS? Sure, Desktop Linux is more usable and popular than ever, but the fact remains that 95%+ of the general population still doesn’t use it. While me and my technically inclined friends can finally use Linux as a daily driver and even play AAA commercial video games on it, something of a pipe dream 10 years ago, that doesn’t help the 90% of people that are still on Windows. That desktop computing situation is a lot like the future of smartphones - Apple and Google aren’t going anywhere. That’s why I say that regulations and laws are going to be the only way to reign in mass data collection, because getting people to switch to alternatives will never be more than 5% effective.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by ignoramous on Monday February 24, 2020 @08:25AM (#22403764)
> I wish the article was a little more technically competent. It leaves out a lot of other important projects in this space like PinePhone, LineageOS, and even the proprietary alternative of Sailfish.

The article, submitted by u/indidea (Gael Duval) [0], sounds like a PR piece for eelo aka https://e.foundation/ which was subject to controversy not long ago [1].

Both https://grapheneos.org/ and https://lineageos.org/ are comparable alternatives, though /e/ really aims to go "full-stack" and comes pre-configured with alternative cloud-services to Google's.

[0] https://www.indidea.org/gael/blog/

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21075675

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by ForHackernews on Monday February 24, 2020 @04:07PM (#22408459)
I really wish /e/ would give more credit to the https://microg.org/ project whose work they're piggybacking on. It's great they're trying to package this stuff and add a layer of consumer-friendly gloss, but it's frankly rude to not acknowledge key FLOSS contributions that make their work possible.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by dangus on Monday February 24, 2020 @10:04AM (#22404548)
Thanks for pointing this out!
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by MisterTea on Monday February 24, 2020 @08:27AM (#22403778)
> Turning off location history in Google and Apple Maps

Google dark patterns make this a no-go. I have multiple locations stored on my Google maps. With location history turned off I was fine until a few months ago when maps told me in order to access that data I need to turn location history back on. So google cripples their software unless you turn on tracking.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by Iolaum on Monday February 24, 2020 @09:01AM (#22403982)
This. Google maps becomes quite hostile&annoying to use if you deny that data access.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by lallysingh on Monday February 24, 2020 @09:37AM (#22404263)
Maps, thankfully isn't as necessary as it used to be. OSM is getting better, and Maps hasn't. It's less usable and keeps trying to shove businesses in my face.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by SomeGuy789 on Monday February 24, 2020 @07:08PM (#22409737)
In one of the older versions of google maps having location turned off meant that the app wouldn't accept any input since a notification 'Turn on your location' kept repeatedly coming up somehow blocking everything. Effectively rendered the app unusable.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by chewz on Monday February 24, 2020 @12:25PM (#22406082)
Use alternative maps -

https://en.mapy.cz/, https://maps.me/ - Google Maps is useless anyway.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by FalconSensei on Monday February 24, 2020 @01:24PM (#22406751)
> Google Maps is useless anyway

Care to elaborate on that? It seems very useful, considering the amount of people that use it on a daily basis

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by throwaway55554 on Monday February 24, 2020 @03:15PM (#22407972)
Here (HereWeGo) maps as well. I use it when I need an offline map.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by lm28469 on Monday February 24, 2020 @09:01AM (#22403984)
I see it as part of the exchange. You give them your data they give you nice products. If you decide to use it without giving, you get a lower quality product.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by eitland on Monday February 24, 2020 @09:17AM (#22404105)
AFAIK according to GDPR this (to hold non related features hostage) is specifically not allowed.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by lm28469 on Monday February 24, 2020 @11:07AM (#22405264)
"don't store my data" but also "store the data I want you to store for the features I cherry picked" probably doesn't work under gdpr.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by rorykoehler on Monday February 24, 2020 @12:37PM (#22406208)
Of course it does. Gdpr is about explicit consent. Don't track my movements 24/7 but let me save places on the map is not a hard thing to comply with.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by simonh on Monday February 24, 2020 @11:24AM (#22405430)
Who says they are unrelated? Providing access to your location data and history can enable a lot of very useful features that aren't possible without it.
Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by eitland on Monday February 24, 2020 @12:11PM (#22405945)
Yep. And that would be OK with GDPR again AFAIK.

But in this case it seems clearly wrong.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by beatgammit on Monday February 24, 2020 @10:43AM (#22404954)
To be fair, the PinePhone isn't really trying to compete against Google or Apple, it's just carving a small niche for FOSS enthusiasts. I don't see it as a competitor because:

- they're explicitly not taking a profit, so unlikely to aggressively rev hardware - little to no software development by the parent company - little to no marketing by the parent company

Purism is developing an app store, productivity suite, and revving the software with full time employees. They're pushing the marketing hard even before the product is ready. They're already talking about a new hardware rev (batch Fir). That's pretty much a direct competitor to both Google and Apple. /e/ is essentially an Android fork, so it's a direct competitor to Google.

Sailfish might be a direct competitor, but I just don't see the PinePhone as even being interested in this space. One of the projects that's being ported to the device could become a competitor (e.g. Canonical could take up development of Ubuntu Touch again), but Pine64 just doesn't seem interested. It's a hobbyist device, and I wouldn't be surprised if Android gets ported and Pine64 offers that as a factory installation option.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by beatgammit on Monday February 24, 2020 @02:09PM (#22407279)
Encouraging people to make settings changes they don't really understand isn't really going to solve anything, especially if another option comes along that has the same problems (e.g. getting people off Facebook, but they just move to Instagram).

We should absolutely encourage awareness of existing privacy solutions, but we also need to point out their weaknesses and build another solution that addresses those weaknesses.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by hawski on Monday February 24, 2020 @12:06PM (#22405877)
> - Make sure you’re on a recent/the latest Android version

How can I do that? You do realize it's not exactly easy to update the phone after the support is dropped by OEM. LinageOS lately seems for me to not be a relevant option if you want latest OS for an older phone. I have Nexus 5x and could not find any reliably working ROM for it quite some time ago. Now it may be better, it may be worse.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by dangus on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @06:26PM (#22418666)
You have to buy a new phone.

I really mean it. I know that is not what you want to hear, but that’s the reality.

Every version of Android below Android P allows apps to access the camera from the background without consent:

https://www.xda-developers.com/android-p-background-apps-cam...

I don’t like disposable hardware as much as the next person but I’m absolutely not going to go without basic security to die on that hill.

Re:Smartphone startups take on Google, Apple and put privacy... by Angostura on Monday February 24, 2020 @10:34AM (#22404852)
> - Turning off location history in Google and Apple Maps

If you want to be a bit more paranoid, on iOS Privacy > Location Services > Off

... not that I would do that, I find it too useful.