Not only is this politically impossible in the US, it would never be able to be equally applied across the industry. Startups would still give a raw deal to their employees. Startup culture in California practically worships extreme hours and periods without pay as "dedication" and part of the "grind".

Furthermore the fact that programming can be fun enough for lone wolf hackers to do their open source projects for free means that unionization efforts would probably lead to a greater industry reliance on actual free work, not less.

I think that burnout has more to do with existential questions and less to do with labor questions. If you don't have a good answer to "why am I doing this job?" then it doesn't matter if you work 40 hours and have excellent healthcare.

Actually I think it's about missing your expectations of reward.

I've never had an issue with any of those things. Maybe people should move away from the valley into the rest of the country where the jobs are more humane

You could still use your leverage to help other people get those things. Solidarity and all that.

My point is people can get those things by moving away from the "cool" startups and work for the vast majority of other companies that already treat tech workers incredibly well. Compared to my peers outside of tech, I've always had better benefits and better working conditions than them. People need to realize that many of the "issues" they perceive with the industry are limited to certain coastal areas. It's the same with the "women in tech" issue. In every position I've held (I live in Cleveland, OH for reference) there's always been a balanced representation of developers from both genders.

You get downvoted, but you actually have a point.

The problem with GP's statement isn't "unionization". It's "tech workers". What does that even mean? It's such a general term that can be applied to vast swathes of the workforce. Is someone who maintains complex VB scripted excel sheets a tech worker, for instance? Or is that label only reserved for those who work at a FAANG company?

Many who have a so-called "technical" or "digital" role do so in industries whose main primary focus isn't producing digital software or services. Banks, Automotive, Health, Education, Food, Retail, Mining, Construction, Transport, Tourism,... And many of those industries do have long traditions of unionization and defending laborer rights.

Many of those workers are already organized and do have many provisions for a sane workplace culture provided by their employers. Because the latter already went through the pain of worker conflicts.

The trouble with the "Valley" is that it originates in that wild idea of bootstrapping your own company from your garage or kitchen table, taking the same mythical roads pioneers of computing took some 40 years ago.

While many found unprecedented freedom in being able to bootstrap or work for a fledgling company, doing so was - and still is - a very risky proposition. You will work outrageous amounts of time without knowing if you ever will be able to cash out. You have to be okay with that.

Today's FAANG companies originate from that narrative, and VC capital backed start up culture heavily projects that narrative. But Silicon Valley isn't a small community of computing enthousiast anymore. The Wild West doesn't exist anymore. It's a particular industry in it's own right and most sizable companies compare to well-established corporations who are just like any other traditional corporation.

Yet, somehow, everyone still perceives these companies as pioneers and give them a free pass as to the ethical choices they make in how they treat the users of their products, and the workers who make those products.

Breaking off from this tangent about Valley corporatism, it should be clear that the plight of workers in that setting isn't really comparable to all workers in other industries and fields that may provide better working conditions.

Just recently, someone argued to me that working on "boring" technology is what gives you the most job stability (which isn't the same as security!). Like, doing Perl or Cobol for social security institutions, banks, transport, etc. With age, I've come to find that this person is likely right.

Better yet, there are entire continents with more humane jobs than most in "the country".

You can burn out no problem with great healthcare and 40 hour work weeks.

Right, but the velocity is probably slower.

I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal or working in the fertilizer plant from The Jungle.

In this economy, if your work environment sucks, the door is open and there are greener pastures.

The biggest problem is really that so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless.

Except that this is not true. The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. If we take the amortized hourly wage by considering unpaid overtime then it becomes even worse which is on par with an average high school teacher or alike. In some cases considering the unpaid overtime plus the unpaid self-studies it can get amortized to the level of a janitor. And this is a systematic problem across the industry.

On the other hand the health insurance doesn't make any difference in these countries since it's the same for all citizens so I am not sure how is that relevant.

> The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's.

I don't know. A quick search shows me accountants to start with 25-35k, while software developers start at 42k and peak significantly higher. Sure, depends on your definition of slightly, I guess. If you're in Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg and you're not getting 50k, call a head hunter. And a lot of unpaid overtime? That's rare even for startups because labor law is pretty strict over here, so lots of overtime is a liability for the company, and, since it's pretty easy to find a new job if you're anywhere near a metropolitan area, companies do take care to not drive their employees away.

Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US focused they have since expanded but this site still has a large US population that view and post on it and with that come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is it right? I don't know but frankly I don't know anything about non US markets in terms of software engineering jobs and I wouldn't attempt to make a statement in terms of those markets because I don't know them. I do know my own market though and thus you'll get posts from me in terms of that market and I'm not particularly sorry about that.

So first off this has traditionally been a US centric site, so you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view and we do make a lot of money in the US software industry.

Second I have never once worked a job like that and every time I see people talk about this like its the industry norm I kind of become incredulous to the fact. The US market is so good you can turn down jobs like that.

I can't help but thinking the overtime you take on is more about you and not pushing back but again maybe this is different outside of the US. Here in the US at least, what are they going to do fire you? Cool, if they do your salary probably just increased by 10-20k USD as you find a new job in < 4 weeks.

I get that what you're saying is your reality but it certainly hasn't been mine and if you push back on things more you'll maybe find it doesn't have to be yours either. It's our market and we have high leverage because how desperate jobs are for Devs of all flavors.

This is right from the website: "Join the Global IT Burnout Index"

And then there is a form to select my country. So even if HN is a US centric site, which I dispute actually, still the website in this post has nothing to do with the US.

And I get that it's different in the US, but I doubt that people don't care if they get fired. I very much doubt that.

First off I said "traditionally US centric" which it was. I maybe should have said "historically US centric" which would be more in line with what I was trying to get across. I don't think it is anymore.

And second I certainly didn't say they don't care, what I am implying though is they shouldn't care as much, the consequences right now are minimal and potentially largely beneficial.

Excuse in the sense of "forgive" that people have a US bias. I agree with you and you read something from that I didn't intend sorry about that.

> the door is open and

- you can easily find a job that devalues you in the exact same dehumanizing way your current job does.

Which is why it's important to strike while our iron is still hot. Grab collective bargaining power before we absolutely need it, like so many other industries do these days.

> We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk.

What's the point of any of that if you're miserable the whole time? Burning through the prime years of your life, no less.

There are valid answers to that question, but I think a lot of people haven't even asked it. In the words of a particularly edgy Radiohead song: "A pig, in a cage, on antibiotics."

> We make a shitload of money

Not exactly true outside certain areas, mostly in the US. In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay.

> so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless

This I would say is actually quite a big problem, one that can lead to burnout in the longer run.

€80K in the Netherlands puts you in the top 1.5% of household income[0]

That said, it's possible to be in the top few % in a major metropolis anywhere in the world and still feel 'average' simply because the cost of living is so great and you're spending >50% of your income on housing.

[0] https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution

I'm not really saying that 80k is a little - it's not. It's more than fair - just not a shitload.

Note however that the chart shows disposable income, which I'm pretty sure is the one after tax. 80k gross is more like 48k after tax.

> In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay.

More than twice the average income? I don't know whether that qualifies as "shitload", but it's not that far away, no?

Well, in the US the equivalent would be around 200k USD. You should also take into account the marginal tax rate of 52%, which yields a net income of a bit below 4k/month.

I'm not really complaining, mind you. It's nice to live in a country where basically nobody sleeps on the street, medical assistance is available (if you really need it) and basically free, the infrastructure is great etc.

> I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order.

Stop minimizing mental health issues. It's profoundly harmful!

Thousands of people in the world jumped off some bridge after being told "you have a good life, take it easy" one time too much.

> We're in the goddamn catbird seat.

A lot of developers have very undeserved jobs, yes.

> We make a shitload of money

Not everybody has the sheer privilege of being born in the right country. In most lands developers are quite underpaid.

> we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal

If you are talking about modern coal mining - it's done by pressing buttons while sitting in a heated steel cabin.

If you are talking about mining with a shovel - that's some dishonest cherry-picking.

On top of that, burnout and suicide rate strongly correlates with feelings of doing a pointless job.

When cooking or building a house or mining coal people can be get a surprisingly amount of satisfaction from their output.

Throwaway, here.

If you can't afford to buy a house on a single-income where you live you aren't making a shitload of money.

Tech is a small club. There is a blacklist. There are backchannel lines of communication. Piss off the wrong people and it will follow you for years.

The Bay is not the world. Most of it is not anywhere near that kind of pathological situation.

What, and, like, have actual political power? Red scare!

My healthcare is 100% paid for and my work week is 40 hours 99% of the time.

My work week is also 40 hours 99% of the time, including the community volunteering my work encourages me to do. I've never missed a milestone because they aren't crazy short and I'm allowed to push back during planning if they are. I think more companies should be like mine. Somehow I still got a 1.4/6 on this survey and my risk "HIGH"