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Re:On Resigning from Google by baddox on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:40PM (#22270660)
Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint.

I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only reliable way) to hold companies accountable for their actions and improve companies' treatment of workers and society.

Re:On Resigning from Google by paxys on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:44PM (#22270716)
> Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits

This is in fact the quickest way to ensure that this behavior immediately stops

Re:On Resigning from Google by baddox on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:49PM (#22270762)
I don't think that's true, precisely because the employee with a complaint can potentially increase their leverage significantly by educating and organizing other employees around the cause.

Your analysis seems to assume that there's some fixed percentage of employees who think some action from their employer is bad, and if that percentage is high enough, then all those employees could quit, which would either somehow signal to the employer that their action was bad or would damage the company so much that they would need to change their actions.

I think that's wishful thinking, and of course the percentage of employees with a complaint is not fixed and can be directly increased by internal efforts to organize. That applies not just to internal awareness, but also public awareness: note that we're only having discussions about cases where employees attempted to organize other employees.

Re:On Resigning from Google by ocdtrekkie on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:13PM (#22271022)
If everyone who participated in the Google Walkout (20% of their workforce) stayed out until Google addressed their complaints, rather than returning to work after their lunch hour was over, all seven demands would've been met, instead of one. (And they probably would've still got paid!) I have my doubts that tech companies could operate with a sudden loss of 20% of their workforce and talent base.

If a company knows you will return to work no matter how much you complain, they are not going to take you seriously. (This was the Walkout's mistake.) And if, as an individual, you make too much noise, you'll just get fired. (See numerous individual examples.) Decisive collective action works, and that's what unions figured out a long time ago.

Re:On Resigning from Google by fao_ on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:12PM (#22271624)
This sort of action is precisely the reason why we have, in the UK, the ability for working men to vote (Originally, they couldn't, it was won by the Chartists in the 1800s), the ability for women to vote, human rights laws, worker's rights laws, and the NHS.

More recently McDonalds workers went on a mass strike in the UK for a living wage, and got a pay rise:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mcdonalds-w...

Re:On Resigning from Google by xtreme on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:51PM (#22273967)
But it is also plausible that if an indefinite strike was on the agenda only 1% of them had joined the walkout instead of 20%, making them easier to let go.
Re:On Resigning from Google by ocdtrekkie on Sunday February 09, 2020 @09:17AM (#22282192)
True, but this is, again, why unions exist. Because then the union can decide to strike, everyone in the union is expected to participate, and the outcome is successful and people's jobs are protected. If engineers at Google want to be taken seriously, they should unionize.
Re:On Resigning from Google by jimthrow on Friday February 07, 2020 @08:09PM (#22272935)
Considering the massive over supply of labor, I’d say they could very easily replace that 20% several times over before they had any problems finding more engineers.
Re:On Resigning from Google by maest on Friday February 07, 2020 @08:29PM (#22273048)
Techies work in a seller's market (as evidenced by the comparatively huge salaries they command). There is definitely no "over supply of labor".

One of Google's biggest assets is their huge army of talented techies. I'd go so far as to say losing that would be an existential threat to the business.

Re:On Resigning from Google by geofft on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:19PM (#22273329)
Comparative to what? Big tech companies are wildly profitable for their owners.

Techies make a lot of money compared to other professions because we genuinely produce a disproportionate amount of value, but that doesn't imply we're in a seller's market.

One way you can tell that there's no dearth of labor is that most companies round an "unsure" in the interview process to "no," not "yes."

Re:On Resigning from Google by maest on Saturday February 08, 2020 @06:32AM (#22275248)
Comparative to most other jobs, of course.

I sugggest you ask a non-tech friend about their experience getting a new job: how many applications they've sent out, how many responses they've received and how many interviews they've actually been to. Then compare that to a software dev's hit rates.

I submit to you that a halfway decent software dev will have a hard time being unemployed: they might not get hired by FAANG and they might have to code in $LANGUAGE_I_HATE, but they'll be able to get a job at a reasonable salary.

Also, consider the fact that there's been a large number of businesses focused on recruitment specifically in the tech area. That's because everyone wants to hire devs and they're willing to pay recruiters to channel the funnel their way.

Few other industries have that luxury.

Re:On Resigning from Google by perl4ever on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:03PM (#22273763)
A large part of supply and demand is the amount of immediate liquidity. Employers seem to have the upper hand when hiring typically because they have a bunch of options right then whereas few applicants have multiple simultaneous offers and if they do, they don't have many. But that's not the same as supply and demand of labor on a longer timescale.

Somebody who's thought more and more clearly about this could write something better about it, but I felt like pointing out what I think is overlooked.

Re:On Resigning from Google by ocdtrekkie on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:43PM (#22273930)
The issue isn't finding more engineers, the issue would be the sudden loss of institutional knowledge, the paralysis while trying to maintain basic functionality, and the distinct possibility of critical, catastrophic failure due to broken processes from missing people. What's the chances that the 20% of employees who don't show up include everyone needed to prevent a failure of Google's entire Ads product?

When say, the teachers go on strike in Chicago, it's not that it's impossible to hire new teachers, it's that someone in the meantime of negotiation has to watch over (and ideally educate) all of the kids that those teachers are responsible for teaching.

Wherever you work, try to imagine a random 1 out of every 5 employees missing one day. How likely are you (and everyone else still there) likely to run into problems conducting your general work. And imagine that that is going to continue until your company manages to interview, vet, hire, onboard, and train all of those people back.

...Or, the corporation could just capitulate to demands. Collective action is incredibly powerful.

Re:On Resigning from Google by smt88 on Friday February 07, 2020 @10:12PM (#22273544)
This sounds like an Econ 101 understanding of the labor market.

Most (white collar) employees are not as fungible as people assume, first of all. Two "Senior Back-end Developers" might have such different work experience that one would ramp up on a project in 5 days, and the other would take a couple of weeks.

Second, all turnover is expensive. For a large company like Google, turnover of 100 people could easily cost millions.

Unfortunately, unless those people worked on ads, Google's investors (and therefore C-suite) probably wouldn't miss them much.

Re:On Resigning from Google by paxys on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:13PM (#22271023)
What do you think is the end result of all the "educating and organizing"? Do you think Google would make major policy decisions (which had massive financial and competitive impacts) because of employees emailing the CEO to voice their displeasure with what they are assigned to do (while they continue to do it regardless)?
Re:On Resigning from Google by eyelidlessness on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:55PM (#22270822)
If a critical mass of the employees both share your view and act in kind. But if you have that much power organized already, you've effectively already got the internal power to make the change you want to achieve rather than resigning.

If you do not have that critical mass, and resignation is the only moral choice, then all you achieve is eliminating that voice from the inside and eliminate any inside power to influence.

Re:On Resigning from Google by anarchodev on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:01PM (#22270886)
It's really not. This decision is a very personal one unique to each employee. Internal activism can be very effective especially if done in a way that gets more attention among existing employees. On the other hand, this is extremely risky to their employment (and in America that means their housing and healthcare) and on top of that it's a ton of work.

It's great when someone who quits has the resources to also try to bring some attention to the reasons why.

Re:On Resigning from Google by velcrovan on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:07PM (#22270952)
Your labor is your only real political power.
Re:On Resigning from Google by lunias on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:13PM (#22271024)
Sadly, labor is not that powerful anymore... especially when the company has the capital to replace you with 5 people tomorrow.

I think the political power can only be regained by pooling your labor with your peers.

Re:On Resigning from Google by samsonradu on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:42PM (#22271277)
Like an union, it has been brought up in tech from time to time.

https://mobile.twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1172279395035...

Re:On Resigning from Google by lunias on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:59PM (#22272500)
Yup, but one brought together by morals and ethics for the sake of morals and ethics. As Jeff points out, tech is not known for poor compensation or working environments. Tech is pervasive because convenience is a hot commodity. Technology disrupts, tech can make or break monopolies / monopsonies by changing the status quo. Having the ability to get another job on a whim doesn't matter much if you one day unintentionally end up serving the parent company that you resigned from; as big fish swallow small fish through acquisition etc.

I wish there was another way, but I can't really think of one that's within our control... Unions are certainly not above corruption either. I see Republicans / Democrats as two opposing unions; instead of making rational decisions on each issue independently everything gets encoded into a binary choice. Red or blue and all the good / bad that comes with either choice.

The real solution is smaller companies. Local businesses that you can simply stop using / move away from. That seems like a pipe dream though; it's more convenient to buy your internet from Comcast and support a monopoly than start your own ISP - even if you do and it gains traction, Comcast will come knocking and you'll take the money and retire.

Re:On Resigning from Google by lunias on Saturday February 08, 2020 @12:03AM (#22274017)
Re:On Resigning from Google by shadowgovt on Friday February 07, 2020 @08:05PM (#22272914)
And that's what distinguishes a Googler walking out from most walkouts: Google still struggles to hire fast enough to fill open roles.
Re:On Resigning from Google by lunias on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:03PM (#22273767)
Because of the nature of the roles or because they are selective to a fault? It's my experience that most people at a company of that size are "just there". If you have 2 employees, both of them have to be excellent. If you have 200 employees, 2 of them have to be excellent.
Re:On Resigning from Google by shadowgovt on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:07PM (#22273785)
The nature of the software Google rights still requires quite a bit of specialization or quite a bit of adaptability, in general.
Re:On Resigning from Google by lunias on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:22PM (#22273850)
I agree, but I hear more stories from / about ex-googlers along the lines of: I have 20 years experience and 2 PhDs and they have me writing unit tests.

I think its likely hard to hire smart people who don't rock the boat; and thus it takes a long time to hire. It's of course possible (and reasonably likely) that there are only a handful of people that can do the work, but I dunno... with the kind of money that Google has you just open a school and start grooming people specifically for the roles that you have open. Build a pipeline of qualified workers, don't wait for them to come to you.

Re:On Resigning from Google by rapind on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:04AM (#22274230)
They've setup shop in Waterloo (ON, Canada) specifically to influence the University and scoop kids up as they graduate.
Re:On Resigning from Google by swivelmaster on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:45PM (#22271315)
Or you end up just leaving behind all the people who don't really care about it, and thus it is never fixed.
Re:On Resigning from Google by nswest23 on Saturday February 08, 2020 @05:34PM (#22279024)
such a pat, real world workable answer. /s
Re:On Resigning from Google by Waterluvian on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:39PM (#22272365)
"Lisa, maybe if I'm part of that mob, I can help steer it in wise directions."

Whenever Homer gives out advice the odds are its bad advice.

Re:On Resigning from Google by dhdejejdhfyx on Friday February 07, 2020 @07:12PM (#22272591)
>I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power ...

This sounds terrible. You're not increasing worker power as a whole you're just increasing the power of workers with similar political agendas. If successful, the unaligned workers don't even get the material benefit of a raise or added employee benefits like they would from a real union. The unaligned are basically just expected to roll with whatever mayhem the preachy workers cause.

Re:On Resigning from Google by dyeje on Saturday February 08, 2020 @10:28AM (#22276195)
This seems like a fantasy. Are there any examples of workers collectively changing the moral character of a company?
Re:On Resigning from Google by qbaqbaqba on Saturday February 08, 2020 @10:03AM (#22276041)
>Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits

Holocaust would not happen. Modernity and the Holocaust by Z. Bauman should be obligatory read for corporate workers.

Re:On Resigning from Google by koheripbal on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:22PM (#22271098)
The problem is that as long as you remain an employee, you have a LEGAL obligation to act in the interests of the Corporation. That is the nature of Fiduciary Duty - something all employees are legally bound by.

You may "voice your concerns" all you like, but while you're an employee, it is your duty to ACT in accordance with the directions you're given, and in the absence of explicit direction, in the interests of the company.

Re:On Resigning from Google by chipotle_coyote on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:25PM (#22272289)
At risk of being the "[Citations Needed] Guy," I don't think this is true. This sounds an awful lot like the canard that corporations have a legal duty to act in the interests of their shareholders, but there is no fact no such legal or even regulatory obligation for that. This misapprehension comes from a paper written by Milton Friedman in 1975 in which he argued corporations have a moral duty to maximize shareholder value and to prioritize that over all other concerns. While that argument has been widely accepted by corporations and often used as a rationale for their behavior, it's never been codified as an SEC regulation, let alone written into law. It's literally just Friedman's opinion, and one that's come under increasing challenge.

If you're an employee of a company you are contractually obligated to fulfill the terms of your contract, but there is no legal -- or if you prefer, LEGAL -- requirement for you to do so. You may be reprimanded or even fired for spending too much time on Hacker News at the office, but you are not breaking any law by doing so. More to the point in this case, you are absolutely not breaking any law by telling your employer that you don't agree with their decisions, or even by trying to organize fellow employees to put pressure on management to change their behavior. If your employer fires you because of your speaking out or organizing, in fact, the law may very well be on your side, not theirs.

Re:On Resigning from Google by perl4ever on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:16PM (#22273824)
"It's literally just Friedman's opinion, and one that's come under increasing challenge"

If you are flexible enough about what "maximizing shareholder value" means, then it's not an endorsement of any behavior anyone disapproves of. You could say the real issue is just that people do bad stuff and say that it is maximizing value.

Corporations often say they have to do stuff to maximize shareholder value, but they also often say they have to act in the worst possible way permitted by law, because that is the standard the law sets. That is, without referencing shareholder value. Maybe it's all just nonsense excuses by people who do bad stuff?

Bondholders (as well as employees and others) come before shareholders in bankruptcy, so it seems like in a very concrete way, maximizing shareholder value is not a feature of it and never has been.

Re:On Resigning from Google by chipotle_coyote on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:28AM (#22274311)
Friedman explicitly argued that a company has no social responsibility other than "to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits so long as it stays within the rules of the game." I don't think he was endorsing bad behavior, per se, but he was condemning any behavior that could be considered "good" but even modestly value-reducing.

There are certainly some economists who might argue that indeed it's become nonsense excuses, including The Economist, which wrote in 2016 that shareholder value theory had become "a license for bad conduct, including skimping on investment, exorbitant pay, high leverage, silly takeovers, accounting shenanigans and a craze for share buy-backs."

(Also, apparently I had the year wrong -- Friedman wrote in 1970, not 1975.)

Re:On Resigning from Google by perl4ever on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:11AM (#22274441)
"within the rules of the game" is a big qualification.

I think whether that is a sufficient qualification depends on whether you are trying to break down or eliminate most of the "rules of the game" or instead make them better.

Lots of ideas make sense by themselves and then become toxic when combined with others.

Re:On Resigning from Google by perl4ever on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:12AM (#22274452)
I messed up that last sentence - "it" should be something like "modern capitalism in the US".
Re:On Resigning from Google by tomnipotent on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:48PM (#22273457)
> LEGAL obligation to act in the interests of the Corporation

This is a myth. The only time this applies is if there's an actual written contract of fiduciary duty. Running a company or having investors does not magically enact some federal law.

Re:On Resigning from Google by perl4ever on Friday February 07, 2020 @11:04PM (#22273770)
As we see by all the talk about stakeholders. Not to mention ethics, obeying the law, etc.