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Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by adelHBN on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:25AM (#22232687)
It boggles the mind why they went through with Brexit! Seriously.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by dang on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @11:25PM (#22244011)
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by lazyjones on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @01:45AM (#22233045)
They were in the EU when this allegedly started, so it obviously isn't a magic cure for whatever the authors of the paper pretend it to be. So why is your immediate reaction to utter the feeling that Brexit is somehow going to make it worse?
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Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by JeromeLon on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @06:44AM (#22234496)
> How do you think they’ll react when they don’t get all the sunshine and roses the populist grifters told them they would?

Easy one. They will say that it's because of EU being a bad looser and revengeful to them.

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by UncleSlacky on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @06:49AM (#22234535)
And that they're being sabotaged by "remoaners" who just don't believe in Britain hard enough.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by coolplants on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:11AM (#22234665)
Brexit solves them not being a sovereign nation. Sovereignty from foreign rule is over what wars are fought, no rational actor would give it away without an existential threat.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by mantap on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:25AM (#22234750)
That's a bit like saying that Britain wasn't sovereign during the time of the British empire. Britain, France and Germany ruled the EU, the UK designed many aspects of it.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by coolplants on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:35AM (#22234817)
Britain did not rule the EU, nor did it have sovereignty over the EU. The EU is a separate political entity from the UK, and had sovereignty over the government of the UK.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by DanBC on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:14AM (#22234681)
It doesn't though, we're still under obligations in international law and we're still under the ECHR.

> Leaving the EU does not affect our rights under the ECHR, as this comes from the Council of Europe, not the EU.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-human-rights-work...

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by coolplants on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:32AM (#22234793)
International law isn’t enforceable and doesn’t supersede sovereignty like the EU does. Plenty of countries violate international law (most of them) with nearly no repercussions.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by DanBC on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @02:29PM (#22239910)
See the comments of Lady Hale at [327-328]: https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2017-0131-judgme...

> International law and standards

> 327. In the High Court and the Court of Appeal NIHRC relied on a number of international treaties and judgments, decisions and general statements of treaty bodies. Horner J dealt with these in a section of his judgment entitled “International Law and Obligations”between paras 59 and 71. Again, I find myself in agreement with the judge in his observations and I do not repeat them. The Court of Appeal did not deal with these arguments.

> 328. Although the traditional and orthodox view is that courts do not apply unincorporated international treaties (JH Rayner (Mincing Lane) Ltd v Department of Trade and Industry [1990] 2 AC 418, per Lord Oliver at 499 and R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union[2018] AC 61), as Lord Hughes stated in R (SG) v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions(Child Poverty Action Group intervening)[2015] 1 WLR 1449, para 137, such treaties may be relevant in a number of ways. NIHRC relies on the third of these, namely, where the court is applying ECHR via the HRA. As Lord Hughes observed, the ECtHR has accepted that, in appropriate cases, the Convention “should be interpreted ... in the light of generally accepted international law in the same field”. Similar propositions are to be found in Convention jurisprudence, most notably, Demir v Turkey(2008) 48 EHRR 1272, para 69; Neulinger v Switzerland (2010) 54 EHRR31,para 131

EU doesn't supersede sovereignty.

Your points haven't addressed ECHR.

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by coolplants on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @03:04PM (#22240303)
Nothing you provided refuted my point. Governments are under no authoritative obligation to obey international law, they do so voluntarily.

The EU does have sovereignty over its member governments. EU statutes take precedence over member governments statutes in nearly every area of life that matters. The UK government cannot override any EU law except through leaving the EU altogether. A government that doesn’t have full control over policy in its own territory is not a sovereign government.

The EHCR is not a sovereign supernational political entity. It’s an agreement to which the UK govt. voluntarily conforms.

The UK merely being able to make voluntary agreements with other countries is not a loss of sovereignty. Being a member of the EU, however, cedes supreme lawmaking power to a higher political institution.

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by hhas01 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @04:28AM (#22233776)
Because it’s easier to blame Others for not being the centre of the universe any more, than to man up and do something about it. Lazy, nihilistic, CBF, post-Empire shitehole. What a sick, sad waste of potential.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by refurb on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @06:37AM (#22234454)
Yeah, completely crazy to want your own self-determination.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by barrkel on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:36AM (#22234823)
Funny how that worked out for Ireland, right? How we were able to enforce our will on the UK?

The sovereignty axe swings both ways.

More independence gives you more degrees of freedom but less power. More unity gives you more power where you're aligned. To maximize effectiveness, in a purely selfish way, it makes sense to sacrifice degrees of freedom for more power if you're not particularly interested in those degrees of freedom to begin with.

The only ways Brexit makes sense are as sacrificing power absolutely (the North Korea Juche approach), or changing the degrees of freedom being exercised (giving up on the Western European social model).

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by zelos on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:07AM (#22234635)
I never really understand the special status given to national sovereignty. We all give up some control in a democratic system, from the local level upwards. Why is there some special status for the national level? What is it that’s so bad about giving up some control at that level as part of a greater system?
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by dageshi on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:27AM (#22234760)
When you no longer really believe (or never did believe) in one of the fundamental pillars of the EU e.g. ever closer union.

If you don't believe in that then it's your duty to leave and let those that do continue forwards with an ever closer union.

The UK joined really hoping to push the EU more towards a confederation which it would've felt comfortable in, the whole "working from the inside" thing that people are always saying is the best way to influence the EU. But ultimately a majority of the rest of the EU wants much closer integration than the UK would've ever been comfortable with... so here we are.

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by hhas01 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:59AM (#22235003)
And how much more self-determination are you enjoying this week vs last?

Meanwhile, I’m in a Tory safe seat with one of the most rotten MPs in the house. Every single election, my vote against them doesn’t do squat, thanks to the fit-up that is FPTP. And what about the “vast unelected government” that is our own UK civil service, which will no doubt grow even larger as we re-onshore the bureaucracy. Well, at least until the hard-right Tories slash public spending to the core, turning the UK into their low-tax haven for the super-rich—i.e. the same unelected elite who engineered this whole scam in the first place.

Sucker.

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by coolplants on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @08:14AM (#22235132)
Are you a Londoner? This does not sound at all in touch with people in the north.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by hhas01 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @09:44AM (#22236044)
I’m a Scot living “Oop North” for over a decade, and very much aware of the attitudes round here.

Believe me, I was never a fan of provincialist Scotland and utterly despise the huge separatist chip on its shoulder and everything that stands for, so to see the English fall for the very same scam really jams in my craw.

Honestly, the sooner that Brits get to experience the same standard of living that Chinese factory workers now enjoy†, the sooner they’ll drink a big cup of STFU and realize just how unfairly blessed before now they really were.

No sympathies for them that got us into it; I only feel bad for t’kids.

--

† And, having come from grinding rural poverty, is still a step up for them.

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by newsgremlin on Wednesday February 05, 2020 @06:17AM (#22245826)
You don't have to be dirt poor to have a cause for national sovereignty. The difference is Scotland has no sovereignty, the British/English do, inside the EU.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by newsgremlin on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:11AM (#22234662)
Now the UK is free to do...what exactly that they could not before?
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by sbmassey on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:39AM (#22234847)
Make their own trade agreements? Hold their government accountable without having a circle of the government and the EU blaming each other?
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Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by dang on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @11:24PM (#22244004)
Please don't post like this here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by sbmassey on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @09:05AM (#22235605)
I don't think shedding ones britches has anything to do with Brexit, honestly, but if it helps you feel free, go right ahead.
Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by coolplants on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @08:18AM (#22235167)
Dictate our own immigration quotas, dictate who can fish in our waters, not subsidize Southern Europe, etc.
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Re:Britain’s Productivity Decline Is the Worst in 250 Years by dang on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @11:26PM (#22244015)
This crosses into personal attack and that's not ok on HN, no matter how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.