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Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by hnarn on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:40AM (#22222192)
Honking is very uncommon in Sweden, and I remember my driving instructor pointing out to me that the only time you ever use it is to call attention to avoid an immediate accident. In practice, I see many drivers not even doing this. I routinely see people jaywalking in urban environments and cars just stopping until they've crossed.

One thing that might be semi related to this is the entitlement of drivers. My view of Sweden is that most people accept that cities "belong" to pedestrians first hand, and cars need to be careful. In other parts of the world, the "get out of my way" entitlement of drivers is very apparent and I don't think it's very helpful.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Svip on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:45AM (#22222217)
> In practice, I see many drivers not even doing this. I routinely see people jaywalking in urban environments and cars just stopping until they've crossed.

Which is the correct thing to do. An immediate accident would be if a car was reversing out of a blind drive way, and another was approaching, and you're seeing the whole thing about to happen, but it isn't clear either of the two other drivers are. That's when you honk.

If you can mitigate an accident by simply stopping, then don't honk. It's generally only for things you can see is about to happen, that the others probably haven't seen, or is aware of. Whether or not the accident will involve yourself is secondary.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by raducu on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:29AM (#22222421)
While I don't honk to punish people, I do (short)honk in case someone does something really stupid that could/almost caused an accident.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by mercer on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:37AM (#22223296)
As a former full-time pedestrian: thanks. more than once it's reminded me to be more careful!
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by gowld on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:06AM (#22224717)
Stopping for a pedestrian won't save their life when another car zooms by you in the next lane, while your car is blocking their view. A pedestrian in the road is an emergency.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by csomar on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:59AM (#22225300)
I'm not sure why you are downvoted. Jaywalking is bad for everyone: The pedestrians since it makes them at risk. The cars since it slows them down. Roads were made for cars and white cross-walks for pedestrians to cross them. If you don't like cars around, then remove the roads.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by joaopbnogueira on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:58AM (#22264278)
Roads were actually built for pedestrians first, jaywalking was 'invented' in the US https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3888104
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Symbiote on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:03AM (#22222309)
"Jaywalking" isn't forbidden in Sweden.

The word "jay" is old American slang for "idiot", and the term was promoted by the car companies to push the blame for accidents onto pedestrians.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Nursie on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:58AM (#22223095)
Nor the UK, where we are told that a pedestrian that is already in the road has "right of way" at all times.

Perhaps they shouldn't be there, but their safety around tons of fast-moving metal is the only important thing at that point.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by mrob on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:29AM (#22223262)
"Right of way" in the UK means a legal right to use the road. Pedestrians have right of way on most UK roads (motorways being a notable exception). "Right of way" is sometimes used as slang for "right to proceed first when multiple road users are competing for the same part of the road", but the correct term for this, as used in the Highway Code, is "priority".
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by chippy on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:37AM (#22223301)
Just to build on this, pedestrians have priority at marked pedestrians crossings of course but also outside of marked crossings when crossing a smaller road where a car is on a main road and is wanting to turn into the smaller road.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-...

"Watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way"

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by 45ure on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:02PM (#22226105)
>"Right of way" in the UK means a legal right to use the road. Pedestrians have right of way on most UK roads(motorways being a notable exception)

There are distinctions to be made, when it comes to 'Right(s) of way' but your bizarre and daredevil interpretation of what constitutes a legal route for pedestrians and the call to ignore common-sense road security, would only be considered by those who have a death wish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-of-way_(transportation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_way_in_England_and_W...

Countryside. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countryside_and_Rights_of_Way_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ramblers

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by mrob on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:41PM (#22226643)
I said nothing about safety, and made no calls to action.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by 45ure on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:07PM (#22227017)
Pedestrians have right of way on most UK roads(motorways being a notable exception

Your open-ended statement implies that legging it across a road is fine, as long as it isn't a motorway. This is not a safe guidance for the uninitiated.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by mrob on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:12PM (#22227093)
It implies no such thing, and it is not guidance.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by 45ure on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:35PM (#22227346)
Your original statement was emphatic and conveys authority. Perhaps, I misinterpreted your riposte, as an intention to inform the reader.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by OJFord on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:37AM (#22223998)
The confusion probably arises because we 'give way' to the higher priority traffic.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by mongol on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:27AM (#22223925)
Is "right of way" perhaps a naval term, primarily?
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by twic on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @01:09PM (#22238853)
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by BoorishBears on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:17AM (#22224279)
It varies by state, but in Connecticut pedestrians always have right of way, but you can still get a ticket for jaywalking.

It reflects the reality that, while cars should get out of the way of pedestrians, a car can't stop as easily as a human, so you can put yourself in danger by darting out into a street

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by unishark on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:47AM (#22224523)
I think generally the party who causes the accident is liable for damages in the accident, regardless of who gets a ticket for what they were doing at the time. Though in some states, the driver always pays for the pedestrian's bodily injury. So you need to swerve into anything else you can find (tree, ditch, etc.) to avoid that darting pedestrian.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by C14L on Monday February 03, 2020 @07:05AM (#22223449)
Interesting.

Maybe we should call it "jaydriving" when a driver acts entitled and doesn't slow down.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by gjm11 on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:13AM (#22224244)
That term (or at least "jay driver") seems to have been in use before "jaywalker" or "jaywalking"!
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by 72deluxe on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:29AM (#22222960)
It's very amusing looking at the replies in this thread with widespread horn use because in the UK using the horn is very rare indeed. It is sometimes used to encourage someone to go at lights that have changed because the other driver is obviously not paying attention to driving a 1+ tonne vehicle, and used in anger when someone does a "dangerous" maneouvre eg. pulling out on someone at a roundabout, but I always think "if you have enough time to sound your horn, you have enough time to react (and therefore not honk)".

Having said this, there are an awful lot of very angry, selfish people on the roads as indicated by the "dash cam" videos on YouTube (where mostly it seems that the driver has submitted a video of a "appalling driving" but actually demonstrates their own inability to control their hot-headed exceedingly short temper in any rational sane manner, thereby indicting themselves rather than the "appalling" other driver).

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:08PM (#22231273)
Here's a good example, the driver at 3:42 in this video: https://youtu.be/GQLUOeo9cps?t=222

The cammer didn't even begin slowing down until their car's forward collision warning went off, and then tries to claim that the one in front of them "stopped like a bitch".

This driver learned nothing from the incident, and will continue to drive poorly.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by 72deluxe on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @04:13AM (#22233682)
Yes, was the driver with the camera not paying attention to anything in front of him?? He should try driving on motorways in the UK in rush hour, where the distance between you and the car in front is about a third of that footage, and everyone's doing 80mph. (Yes I attempt to increase the distance for safety purposes, and then people pull in because they think it is a "space").

Insane.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by yodsanklai on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:10AM (#22222605)
You're lucky. Here in France, honking is illegal (except for signalling immediate danger) yet people honk all the time and it's tolerated. I live in a city and it's a major nuisance. It's stressful for drivers (even more for cyclists) and extremely annoying for people living nearby. I really don't understand why this isn't taken more seriously.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by seszett on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:34AM (#22222716)
I thought it was bad in France but now I live in Belgium and it's much worse. That's in Flanders, no idea about the rest of Belgium although I imagine Brussels should be worse on this regard.

People will honk just because they are stuck in traffic, and once one car starts honking, at least a few others will join them.

In my street in particular, this happens at least weekly at 7am and in front of a hospital, and if I walk up to them to tell them to stop because it's useless and disturbs everyone, they get even more angry obviously.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by justanotherc on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:42AM (#22223328)
People don't like to be told they did something wrong
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by hylaride on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:18AM (#22224289)
Interesting. Last time I was in a city in France, I noticed the whine of scooters more than honking, but I live in a big city so I may have just tuned the honking out.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Siemer on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:05AM (#22222316)
Have you ever visited a city like Mumbai? In the larger cities of most less developed countries it's not only very accepted but even necessary for the safety of everyone to honk at every corner or crowded situation.

The main culprit is the staggering amount of scooters, that usually ignore all rules and zip through any opening they can find. You'll be saving lives by honking in every situation, people kind of count on it. I'm not surprised this behavior translates into an increase in meaningless honking at red traffic signs.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Ayesh on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:18AM (#22222384)
Not the person you replied to but I disagree with this.

I've been to Mumbai (and Delhi and a few other cities for that matter), and it is not for the safety.

Take Ho Chi Minh City for example. There are more scooters there than people, and honking is not much of a problem as in Mumbai. Scooter riders know how to make their way and they are super precise when pedestrians cross. Pedestrians don't wait for scooters to stop. You just cross the road, and scooters will go around you. In India, there is the reverse mentality that roads belong to vehicles and pedestrians just have to take care of themselves.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by kranner on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:17AM (#22222638)
> I've been to Mumbai (and Delhi and a few other cities for that matter), and it is not for the safety.

I live in India, and a lot of times it is for safety. It's not always about people crossing the road. There are people walking on the road, shoulder-to-shoulder, four deep; there are scooters driving side by side as their drivers are having a conversation; there are car and scooter drivers talking on their cellphones edging along slowly, not stopping, not driving at the normal speed of traffic; there are people getting out of parking, backing into traffic, seemingly oblivious to you as they drive backwards into you while you're stopped or braking hard; there are cattle; there are dogs. 9 times out of 10 it is for safety.

The Mumbai traffic light honking is about people honking at vehicles stopped in front of them to start driving when there's still a few seconds left on the red light. That's what the cops are trying to prevent.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by aww_dang on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:27AM (#22222952)
It should be fair to start with the premise that this behavior creates a noise pollution problem. Otherwise the authorities would not be working to curb it.

Everyone has an excuse, but two wrongs don't make a right. Drivers are not justified to create noise pollution because pedestrians or other drivers are indulging in inconsiderate behavior.

I've lived on both sides of the world and frankly, it all comes down to how the individual regards himself and his social obligations. S. Asia is notorious for it's poor regard of public spaces. These are foundational cultural concepts that I don't see changing any time soon.

Without a sense of personal responsibility the individual is powerless to act. The excuses you provide make the problem perpetually someone else's fault. The comment above spoke to the "entitlement of drivers" and this is the key to the whole issue.

In the west, I've seen known gangsters stop their limo to personally remove a single piece of litter from the street. These are people who explicitly live outside of the bounds of the law. This person could have made his chauffeur or assistant retrieve the trash, yet he took such pride in his neighborhood that he had to do it personally. The contrast is obvious.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968587/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by kranner on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:02AM (#22223112)
No one is justifying impatient honking at traffic lights.

My "excuses" as you've put them are situations that occur everyday on Indian roads where honking is an alternative to colliding with and running over people and animals. Noise pollution is the lesser evil.

I would never indulge in causing that kind of situation to arise. That's the limit of what I can do. If faced with that situation my greater responsibility is to avoid a collision.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by aww_dang on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:08AM (#22223145)
The alternative is to just slow down. If you are driving in a way that puts you at risk of hitting pedestrians, then you might want to look at that...
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by kranner on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:15AM (#22223169)
Obviously. Except when there are four two-wheelers tailgating you and braking would cause them to collide with you, or at least slow down all the traffic behind you so that everyone is now honking at you.

It's probably hard to understand what I'm talking about if one has never experienced traffic like this themselves.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by aww_dang on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:18AM (#22223189)
Like I said, I've lived on both sides of the world. It is probably hard to understand the cultural norms of living without rampant noise pollution if you haven't experienced it first hand.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by kranner on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:24AM (#22223235)
I'd love to move everyone in India to the other side of the world so they can pick up better cultural norms and such, but it seems an unrealistic proposition.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Taniwha on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:24AM (#22222671)
I have observed this .... it doesn't help that they count down the red to green change
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by gowld on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:08AM (#22224746)
This is famously bad design that had been abandoned by everyone who can afford to update.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by vadasambar on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:07AM (#22222598)
> Scooter riders know how to make their way and they are super precise when pedestrians cross. Pedestrians don't wait for scooters to stop.

This actually describes India as much as Ho Chi Minh City.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by seszett on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:43AM (#22222760)
Saigon was my idea of the worst possible honking habits, I can hardly imagine how it is in Mumbai if it's even worse.

But apart from honking, although I wouldn't call the roads "safe" for pedestrians, cars indeed don't really compete with pedestrians, everyone just tries to get along however they can.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by toomanybeersies on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:15AM (#22222903)
I've spent my fair share of time on the road in developing countries.

Because of how everyone drives, honking is a necessity. It's how you know where other drivers/riders are without needing to see them, and when there's traffic all around, you can't only use your eyes.

I actually feel safer riding a motorbike in developing countries than I do in Australia, because at least drivers are aware and expecting me in somewhere like Vietnam.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by aww_dang on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:14AM (#22222362)
Yes.

Do you believe that these behaviors are necessary and excusable because of the lack of development or that these countries are less developed because of these attitudes?

Which option is a proactive philosophy which promotes change?

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by Siemer on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:13AM (#22223821)
In the current situation it is necessary, since it prevents accidents. The main problem is that there is simply too much traffic on poorly planned and barely maintained infrastructure, so in that sense development would "solve" the necessity of honking.

But that's a long term solution, which will require a lot of time and funding. A short term solution that does not involve a massive infrastructure overhaul is difficult. Perhaps a clever reflow AI could mitigate some of the problems in the near future. This is something that does need attention, because the air pollution in cities facing this problem is terrible.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by aww_dang on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:45AM (#22225111)
Somehow other regions manage to handle traffic congestion without creating 85db of noise pollution.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by TeMPOraL on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:32AM (#22222443)
Same in Poland. You have a legal obligation to honk a) to warn about imminent danger, b) when doing certain maneuvers (e.g. passing by, overtaking) in very low visibility conditions (e.g. dense fog). In built-up areas you'll get fined for honking for other reasons; on the countryside, you're only forbidden from "abusing" the horn.

Not sure how much culture plays into it - over here it's cars that own cities (not to the extent they do in the US, though).

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by swiley on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:36AM (#22223985)
> the only time you ever use it is to call attention to avoid an immediate accident.

It’s taught this way in the US as well, although it’s pretty often used to express anger.

> the "get out of my way" entitlement of drivers is very apparent.

Here the universities have the “car is a guest in the pedestrian’s space “ feeling but a lot of cities don’t (which was pretty dangerously confusing to me after a few years of college.)

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by OJFord on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:43AM (#22224033)
Similarly in the UK, it's to alert other drivers to your presence. e.g. on a winding country road with no room to pass another road user safely, nor visibility around the corner.

But of course, 'I say, I am just here, let's not hit each other' does quite naturally decay into 'Oi, I'm just here, you nearly bloody hit me you prick'.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by mar77i on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:04AM (#22225353)
This casts an interesting light on my long-standing dislike for crosswalks: Everywhere else on the streets as a pedestrian, drivers will not expect me, therefore it is my, the pedestrian's, responsibility to stay safe. On crosswalks, it is the drivers' responsibility to stop to let me cross, whether they see me or not, which seems kind of unpredictable to me, and to children, too, I imagine.

As a pedestrian, I feel more comfortable assuming drivers' "get out of my way" mentality, because I cannot assume I was seen.

I imagine that at least some accidents happen in the shared windings of responsibilities between drivers and pedestrians that can grow into full-blown confusion - and accidents, where I'd rather prefer a simple, pessimistic solution for myself as a pedestrian.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by chrisseaton on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:58AM (#22225281)
> I routinely see people jaywalking in urban environments

Swap 'people jaywalking' with 'people trying to cross a road.'

Jaywalking is a ludicrous concept and even more ludicrous as something to make a legal issue.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by raxxorrax on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:04AM (#22223122)
It is pretty uncommon here too, although there certainly is an effect that mutates every driver to a choleric imbecile as soon as they get behind the wheel. Fascinating really.

As if those 5 seconds of waiting would ruin your whole day. In most cases it isn't even 5 seconds and honking nets you nothing besides animosity.

Given that, I wouldn't want to drive anything in India that is larger than a rickshaw. But those have very likely horns too if they want to survive. A busy road in India just looks like complete chaos.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by carlmr on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:13AM (#22222622)
In Germany if you don't start accelerating when the light turns yellow, the guy behind you will start honking.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by MrGilbert on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:41AM (#22223016)
> In Germany if you don't start accelerating when the light turns yellow, the guy behind you will start honking.

Don't generalize. Usually, you have some seconds until the driver behind you will honk. I normally count "21 - 22 - 23", then I honk if there hasn't been any reaction (restarting the engine, pressing the brake pedal, etc.). But your mileage my vary.

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by carlmr on Monday February 03, 2020 @07:38AM (#22223598)
Maybe it's area dependant, in my city they definitely honk in under a second.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by MonkZ on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:17AM (#22222636)
German car driver here. I don't use it as signal of anger, but as hint, that the driver in front has to refocus on the traffic again. (Others may still angry-honk of course)
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by umvi on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:03AM (#22224160)
I realize in Germany yellow comes before green (and not after, like America). But it still reminds me of this Simpsons clip;

https://youtu.be/QR10t-B9nYY

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by carlmr on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:17AM (#22224275)
It comes before and after.

Green -> Yellow (go if you're still at a speed that stopping would be dangerous) -> Red -> Red & Yellow (get ready) -> Green

Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by unishark on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:59AM (#22224670)
They do this in Tijuana too (in this case honk when the red is about to turn green). They clearly are not giving you a chance, you are always just presumed to be sleeping.
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by wink on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:22AM (#22224885)
Anecdata. I can't remember that this happened to me more than like twice, and I've been driving here for 18ish years...
Re:Honk more, wait more: Mumbai traffic police introduce the... by anonymousDan on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:49AM (#22224069)
As they should, get a move on (not you specifically of course ;))