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Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by zozbot234 on Friday January 31, 2020 @07:53AM (#22201218)
Private property in land is pretty much the definition of a government-created privilege, so the government does plenty of "obstructing" when it comes to people's right to shelter. The governments which originally granted those monopoly rights on land many centuries ago had no inherent authority to do so-- although they may have had authority to lease the use of that land for some limited time, under fair and non-discriminatory rules. (This is how land is managed e.g. in Hong Kong and Singapore, and the system works quite well.)
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by Mediterraneo10 on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:02AM (#22201269)
> Private property in land is pretty much the definition of a government-created privilege

Though I welcome citations to prove the matter one way or the other, I suspect that the 18th-century Lockean concept of natural rights which informed the founders of the USA, saw ownership of private property as a right and not a government-created privilege. That is, if one claimed land on what was seen as terra nullius, or if a person’s family had owned the lank back to time immemorial, then the land was rightfully theirs regardless of government recognition or not. State recognition in the form of deeds would only have represented something useful for dispute resolution, and did not imply that the state was granting any rights.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by zozbot234 on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:06AM (#22201314)
Locke specifically cautioned that ownership in land could only be justified so long as there was "enough, and as good, left in common for others". Clearly, this is no longer the case today; indeed, the monetary value of that monopoly right precisely shows the extent to which the use of land has become scarce.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by yters on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:15AM (#22201376)
An artificial scarcity created by the fact the government controls most of the land...

We should be demanding the government cede control of the land, instead of pleading for the government to give us a smidgen of what it does not rightfully possess!

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by charlesu on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:31AM (#22201482)
And private investors wouldn't immediately buy up as much land as possible as they did with single family homes during the housing crisis?

Everyone needs a place to live and land is a finite resource. Plus, foreign investors love to use real estate to park money. Government doesn't seem to be the problem here. People will pay what they have to to avoid being homeless. At the same time, developers will build what's most profitable: luxury housing. The market won't fix the problem, so we the people, by way of government, should.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by yters on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:46AM (#22201578)
Well, don't let foreign investors buy up all our land. Government should cede control of the land, and let its citizens stake out plots.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by learc83 on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:53AM (#22201619)
And then we've just kicked the can down to the road a generation or so. Whatever problems you think more privately owned land will solve today, will just be waiting for us tomorrow.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by dsfyu404ed on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:52AM (#22201613)
None of what you've described is a problem absent government micromanagement of what can and can't be done on said land (strict zoning, examples include SV). The government has stepped in in many markets and halted that "race to the bottom" that everyone seems to hate and $500/mo 2br apartments vanish with it.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by charlesu on Friday January 31, 2020 @09:08AM (#22201739)
Can you point to a developed country where the government doesn't micromanage land and housing is affordable and plentiful as a result? I can't think of any modern or historical examples. How does less zoning lead to affordable housing? What's the mechanism?
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by DuskStar on Saturday February 01, 2020 @01:50AM (#22209136)
Japan? [0] Most construction is by-right, and housing is some of the cheapest in a developed nation. There are zones, but only 12 nationwide, and each only specifies a maximum use - this means if a location is zoned for industrial or dense commercial, you can still build apartments there. (Generally. It's not quite that simple, but still fits on a single poster [1] - you can't build stores, restaurants or schools in industrial for example)

0: https://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.htm...

1: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sV5ETXDs_8M/Ux-axBTuF2I/AAAAAAAAA...

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by yters on Friday January 31, 2020 @10:34AM (#22202476)
I guess most non developed countries? People just walk into the wilderness and plop down a free (money wise, not labor wise) house.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by socialdemocrat on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:49AM (#22201603)
That is a highly artificial concept that only applies to the US given that there was vast amounts of land and relatively few people. But even in the US the assumption was highly flawed as it basically ignored the existence of native people.

Their land was just to be taken by violence. Hence without government created privilege all your are left with is a dog-eat dog world where the strongest through violence will take land for himself.

European settlers would respect each others claim of land mostly, but it basically meant it was in principle no different from an invading force stealing land.

Native Americans of course did not own land in the Lockean way. They held the land in common. The natural arrangement was in many ways closer to a communist/socialist ideal.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by ptah on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:17AM (#22201391)
the state still has to protect it. without a state someone else could violently take the land away with impunity
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by zozbot234 on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:24AM (#22201439)
That's why these rights should be leased over time. The rent from these leases can then pay for national defense, a courts system (formal rights to real-estate are quite important if you want people to physically invest in it) and many other things. If you just give them away, you're left with no money to pay for these things.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by paulnechifor on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:22AM (#22201426)
> This is how land is managed e.g. in Hong Kong and Singapore, and the system works quite well.

Really? I thought HK was notorious for it's housing crysis where you have people living in flats the size of closets. According to this[1] only 24 % of land is developed in HK (7 % is residential). My understanding is that the government does this on purpose because it makes the majority of its budget from this.

[1]: https://www.cedd.gov.hk/filemanager/eng/content_954/Info_She...

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:59AM (#22201667)
Hong Kong has very difficult topography: lots of islands, bays and steep hills. Much of the land is not really habitable, and the government builds very dense, very tall (unfathomably so by US standards) public housing on much of what is.

This is not to say that HK doesn't have a housing supply side problem, because it definitely does, but it's not just the government squatting of vast tracts of flat land.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by zozbot234 on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:39AM (#22201537)
I suppose it beats the CA housing crisis where people aren't even allowed to live in flats the size of closets, even if many would be quite willing to.
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by 0xfaded on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:58AM (#22201664)
I disagree with this because it solves the exponential wealth distribution problem exactly by making exponential wealth acceptable. It's okay that I live in a mansion where 100 people could live because those 100 people have the option to live in a closet.

I would instead favour making unproductive use of land exponentially expensive through taxation. However I admit the details of how that would be implemented are very fuzzy.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by ur-whale on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:56AM (#22201649)
> This is how land is managed e.g. in Hong Kong and Singapore, and the system works quite well.

You obviously never had to pay actual rent in either place.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by keanzu on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:01AM (#22201261)
> had no inherent authority to do

Who decides what inherent authority governments do and don't have?

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by yters on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:11AM (#22201347)
Hopefully not the governments!
Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by mytailorisrich on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:59AM (#22201668)
Not government-created but government-enforced and protected, as is the case for all property rights. This is for obvious reasons of protecting social order and peace.

The day, thousands of years ago, someone picked a fertile piece of land, cleared it, and started growing crops on it is the day private property of land was born.

Re:Housing is a human right: How Finland is eradicating home... by mlatu on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:25AM (#22201447)
There should be more people like you