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Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by maximente on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:54PM (#22130493)
> “I don’t have confidence that DoD could build a unique texting system with proper security protocols that would beat any commercial, off the shelf, version,” the former official said.

so $700B in defense spending can't match some motivated, talented FLOSS devs? that's rich.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by xedeon on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:09PM (#22130674)
That's the sad reality. Not just on the DoD side, but from the entire federal IT workforce/teams.

With the exception of:

18F https://18f.gsa.gov/

USDS https://www.usds.gov/

The motto seems to be: "Open Source is BAD! How are we going the get support?! Let's just buy a product or solution from a vendor" Even though they have people/teams who were hired as developers. I have so many horror stories, it's not even funny.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by Symmetry on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:27PM (#22132314)
Back when I was in the military industrial complex we loved Red Hat because we could buy Linux from them so it wasn't "freeware" and we could use it.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by mikekhusid on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:19PM (#22130773)
Check out Kessel Run as well. https://kesselrun.af.mil/

DoD mindset re: digital acquisitions is changing.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by dogman144 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:49PM (#22131105)
how each branch is implementing tech commands is fascinating. - DDS in general seems like a great program.

- KR dudes are great and will probably unfuck the AF's tech if they have enough wiggle room and command support against Lockheed and co. Hiring at GS-12s, few weeks approval, quick clearances, other unheard of comp strategies to get good civ talent.

- Army futures command is ..... near retired E9s and O6s in cargo shorts and underarmour polos, hiding out in the Austin Wework

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by 2StepsOutOfLine on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:53PM (#22131885)
Sadly it's hard to argue the effect that KR is having is "positive".

KR stood up by working closely with Pivotal who supplied both the Pivots to pair program with the comparatively inexperienced AF devs as well as the deployment platform.

While the means are debatable, the ends that Units supplying devs to KR had to face we're not. Those Units got back programmers completely reliant on Pivotal Cloud Foundary. You would get devs that had no concept of what happens to their code after they run `cf push` and the Units had to face the reality that their devs were ineffective without PCF which costed 10's of millions to purchase and maintain by a team of Pivotal engineers.

Obviously Pivotal is a company that exists to make profit but smaller units that supplied devs to KR largely felt taken advantage of. And after that you had things like SpaceCamp, LevelUp, Platform1, that are very similar to KR just without the heavy reliance on Pivotal or their products popping up left and right.

Now that it's gone on for so long even leadership in KR is getting pressured to actually produce a product ready app for all the money that's been dumped. They have plenty of MVP's but afaik nothing to big AF's satisfaction.

At least from a lowly enlisted programmers perspective you can live in Boston in civilian clothes for 6 months.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by AndrewKemendo on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:32PM (#22134506)
This is no longer the case.

While we do have spring applications running on PCF, we have a significant and growing number of services and applications that are not built on PCF and PCF isn't required to build a production application and be CATO compliant. In fact almost all of the applications and services in my branch are not.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by BinaryIdiot on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:38PM (#22131713)
> The motto seems to be: "Open Source is BAD! How are we going the get support?! Let's just buy a product or solution from a vendor"

Not really accurate anymore. Maybe it was true a decade ago but when I worked in the DoD space almost every single project was attempting to use ONLY FOSS where possible and to try and move off of companies proprietary stuff.

Unfortunately most of the projects I've seen ended up failing and Palantir usually sweeps in and gets a contract because the users really like it.

There is a huge want inside of the DoD for FOSS, it's just mortally wounded by others who want systems like Palantir or through simple incompetence.

In my experience, anyway.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by xedeon on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#22131952)
Maybe from your experience with one agency/department but the DoD is a BIG organization. But it's still a thing in most federal agencies. Some not as bad as the others.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by BinaryIdiot on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:48PM (#22141225)
Oh for sure! When I worked as a contractor I worked with many departments but even the groups I worked with didn't represent the entire department they were in. But it was a very common theme with every single one that I worked with.

I'd love to see some data on FOSS usage across the DoD but that type of audit is likely impossible.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by erikbye on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:05PM (#22131300)
OSS is used extensively in DoD.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by hutzlibu on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:16PM (#22131444)
Can you give examples? And do they also activiley participate in the upstream?
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by erikbye on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:21PM (#22131498)
Most of what's used in enterprise are used, so no examples really needed. Upstream activity tends to be minimal, but it happens, usually indirectly via contractors. There are many stories online that can be found by searching, in regards to specific systems, and some software.

There are also various parties working hard to promote more OSS use in DoD, two examples: GAO, OSSI. Not to mention the DoD is mandated to release at least twenty percent of its own custom software as open source. Like anything gov, it's a slow process.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by xedeon on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:06PM (#22132053)
I guess department wise, DoD/Pentagon is leading the front in OSS.

Also, the requirement to release at least 20 percent of custom-developed code as OSS is not a sole DoD directive.

They are just enforcing the Federal Source Code Policy from: https://sourcecode.cio.gov/OSS/

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by CapricornNoble on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:36PM (#22134528)
The Tactical Service Oriented Architecture[1] has a Battle Command Display module that is built on top of Liferay[2]. There's other C2 systems that use Cesium[3]. I don't think the TSOA devs are pushing their code upstream, but that's just a guess.

[1]https://www.candp.marines.mil/Programs/Focus-Area-4-Moderniz...

[2]https://www.liferay.com/

[3]https://cesium.com/cesiumjs/

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by zamadatix on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:57PM (#22130534)
Quote is about beating not matching. If the FLOSS software matches all of their requirements then there isn't a way to beat it and it's already made.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by dpeck on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:00PM (#22130575)
Not once has that ever stopped an RFP from being put out or a contract from being awarded.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by mattlutze on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:55PM (#22131182)
Lots of RFPs are awarded to companies with existing commercial technology, or to solution providers who bid on a plan to integrate open-source software and maybe add a little flavor.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by retbull on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:25PM (#22130852)
Hopefully this is the first time. Honestly the government needs to make more open decisions like this (hard because of tracking budgets and how contracts are awarded and defined as complete). A bit more flexibility and open decisions with easy input from their users would do our country a HUGE service and save a metric fuck ton of money.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by ineedasername on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:35PM (#22132397)
Even if there was a FLOSS option that checked every box on features, there would still need be an RFP for implementation. You can't create and manage the infrastructure of a system at that scale without spending enough money to require an RFP.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by ineedasername on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:55PM (#22134267)
Always fun to get downvoted for voicing a statement of fact: an RFP is required, if I remember correctly, for any purchase in excess of $25,000. It's not a high bar, and would easily be surpassed by having to pay a contractor to implement and integrate even the simplest of tools if it's to be used across the entire DoD Enterprise.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by hamiltont on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:50PM (#22132582)
> so $700B in defense spending can't match some motivated, talented FLOSS devs? that's rich.

Not in my experience. The problem is not technical talent, it's culture.

That's not to say it's impossible to solve these issues, only that a culture of top-down "get it done" does not tend to mesh well with the rigid discipline needed to make a secure product. Ever had to say "no" to a general?

On any system built in house, there will be management feature requests which force security compromises. For example, "We must archive the data of this comms network - we have a legal requirement to do that!!" or "We need to ability to access user's data for internal/external investigations", etc.

Solving these issues in a secure manner is incredibly hard, and IME it can be incredibly difficult to explain to someone non-technical why "just do X" will harm the security posture. More often than not, a developer (with their salary paid by the boss) will be forced into "just doing X" by someone who does not truly understand how much that compromises the system. Boss will be happy, thinking they "pushed it through" and non-crypto developer will be happy thinking "it has some authentication applied so must be secure" while cryptographer will be largely ignored or misunderstood. (Note: not a cryptographer, but I am an expert in other domains and have worked with enough to see their pain first hand)

Most non-cryptographers on the project start to get confused, typically thinking all of the compromises are OK because they only open doors for the DoD and that is who the product is for, without having the training or knowledge to realize how problematic this thinking can be. IMO - listen to your cryptographer, you hired them for a reason.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by UncleMeat on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:33PM (#22130952)
Crypto is a tiny community and doing it right is very hard. It is not surprising to me that access to talent is worth more than raw dollars.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by hadtodoit on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:44PM (#22131060)
The first iteration of healthcare.gov cost $1B iirc and it was a broken mess. The task was herculean but no doubt a lot of that money filled bureaucrat pockets. The public sector, and contractors just don't attract top talent like the private does, nor are they spearheaded by people who earned their position.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by wpietri on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:18PM (#22132216)
Bureaucrats in the US rarely end up with full pockets. As with a great deal of government IT work, it's private companies that are raking in the money. Healthcare.gov in particular was outsourced.

I don't think the problem is "top talent". I think the problem is how people think about software, and therefore how they budget for and manage it. And I don't think the problem is unique to government. I've heard about plenty of private sector giant-project boondoggles where enormous sums were wasted in similar fashions. It's just that those don't make the newspapers, but instead get gossiped about by tech people over beers.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by goatinaboat on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:55PM (#22131902)
The French company Thales basically re-invented BlackBerry for the exclusive use of their government https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/security/telephony-...
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by scarejunba on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:54AM (#22136530)
Well, that doesn't sound impossible. After all, it's what the dollars are attached to.

Think about it: if you want to implement an echo server that can't be cracked to view previous things it echoed, you could probably do it quite well. Now imagine I bring a billion dollars, and some more requirements, and I hire a few hundred people to work with you on this, and some of them are security consultants, and some are compliance guys who want the echoed text saved for compliance, and some others are privacy experts who want the echo text inspected by DLP software so that you aren't sending PII.

I rate former you more likely to succeed than latter you. In the first problem, it's technical. In the second, it's organizational.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by pjc50 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:54PM (#22131159)
Yes, that sounds about right.

There are not a lot of people who can do crypto well, and they tend to be too weird to make good government or megacorp employees. The NSA will have people capable of doing it, but they undoubtedly have more important things to do than write a chat app.

They could hand a billion dollars to Microsoft or Amazon, who would happily take it, but would that produce a better result? Or any results at all?

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by ryanmercer on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:47PM (#22131812)
>and they tend to be too weird to make good government or megacorp employees.

Or simply do not want to work for the government or a megacorp.

Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by dogman144 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:00PM (#22130572)
fwiw RHEL is all over Army systems under the hood
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by erikbye on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:07PM (#22131331)
This is true for DoD, NATO, etc...
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by anticensor on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:10PM (#22131365)
Not due to budget, but due to incentive structure. Low ranked military would avoid potential liability at all costs and just stay put if no order is issued.
Re:82nd Airborne unit told to use Signal or Wickr on governm... by reaperducer on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:10PM (#22130682)
Maybe not DoD, but perhaps NSA.

If the NSA can make it secure against themselves, that's not a bad start.