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Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kick on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:07AM (#22128635)
This thread is kind of chilling, because everyone within is treating it like it's just chat software or something.

With quotes from this thread like "in the meantime the work doesn't get done," and "bid for contracts that [enable] government to make some real progress," you'd never guess this stuff is going to be used to and to enable murder.

So many people were focusing on how Microsoft Ɛ> Linux or Open Source or whatever (so much so that even rms went to Microsoft and complimented them) yet completely ignore the harm they're still trying to cause.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by flatline on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:13AM (#22128684)
Is all defense-related work complicit in murder?

Do we not need a military?

Nothing is perfect, but we are trapped on a planet with a bunch of violent, highly intelligent apes. Certainly the military does things I disagree with, and things could always be improved, but generally what is the alternative?

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by james-mcelwain on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:20AM (#22128747)
There's a huge, gigantic difference between not having a military at all and spending 1 trillion a year to be an imperialist superpower. It's almost like... there's a middle ground.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by zionic on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:27AM (#22128825)
The thing is, we spend that much and we're not even good imperialists. When was the last time we annexed any territory? Declared a lesser state a protectorate? Or established a new colony? We spend trillions/year to be the world police so our "allies" don't have to while they mock us on twitter.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by h0h0h0h0111 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:42AM (#22128991)
Annexed? In 2020, there is no need to annex a country to get everything you want from them - on the contrary, it's an administrative nightmare to annex a country when you can stick your military bases there, export your goods there, and make their economy dependent on your country's and your money without it.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by caleb-allen on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:25PM (#22130173)
How about shaping countries like Venezuela, Iran, Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, South Korea, Japan, etc etc etc, all in ways (intended to be) economically beneficial to the US?

If you can stage a coup or rile up and train a militia to fight your proxy war, there is no need for an outdated notion of "imperialism".

The US has the most powerful military the world has ever seen, and that power is not simply being tossed into the dumpster.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by etrk on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:29PM (#22129565)
We have over 800 military bases in ~70 countries around the world.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:36AM (#22128930)
We outsource the dirty stuff. The important thing is that there is a market for our bullets and bombs.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by corporate_shi11 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:31AM (#22128871)
The US is not imperialistic, that's just a cute talking point.

That said I do agree we spend too much on our military. We should always spend more than any other nation to ensure dominance, but I'd imagine cutting the budget down would force efficiency and actually improve the military at this point.

However it seemed the person above was saying that militaries in general are bad or murderous which is very different from saying the budget just needs to be reduced.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by FpUser on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:59AM (#22129208)
The US has nukes. Nobody's ever going to attack it directly. Why do you need overwhelming military dominance in conventional forces then? I suspect it has something to do with being able to force point of view by having big stick available to back it up.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by unishark on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:11PM (#22130028)
There's also a lot of middle ground between a "point of view", by which I assume you mean interests which are not justifiable defense, and behavior so beyond the pale you'd want to melt an entire city to prevent it. Particularly since the pollution and lingering health effects of nukes are so unacceptable compared to conventional alternatives.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by FpUser on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:14PM (#22131419)
Somehow I do not notice middle ground. All I see is the overwhelming force present virtually everywhere you can point your finger on the map bar couple of places where the US dares not to go. Meanwhile I think even with 1/10th of it current force the US can surely defend its territory and citizens. I agree about pollution: depleted uranium and agent orange for example are way more preferable then the alternative.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by ta999999171 on Friday January 24, 2020 @06:56PM (#22143513)
> The US is not imperialistic, that's just a cute talking point.

Cuba's shiny new banking system, Japan's Navy(?), and Afghanistan's poppy fields disagree.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by ineedasername on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:48AM (#22129076)
Sure, there can be a middle ground in spending. But that doesn't change the GP's point: whether it's a massive military or a modest one, the purpose of a military lies in its potential to injure & kill people. As such, so long as you agree that some level of military is needed, you've already crossed the "no killing" line.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by SpicyLemonZest on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:28AM (#22128831)
The kinds of things that the military would be doing on a cloud platform seem likely to occupy that middle ground.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by Hydraulix989 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:26AM (#22128816)
There's not, because it maintains a world order that would be happily taken up by someone else if the US didn't do it.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by akiselev on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:36AM (#22128928)
There absolutely is a middle ground. It starts with actual audits of the DoD, which requires no reduction of capabilities and have never even been completed once.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by Beltiras on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:30AM (#22128867)
Less empire, more democracy.
[dead]
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by Miner49er on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:20AM (#22128749)
From HN guidelines:

> Please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills.

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine.

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by koheripbal on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:04PM (#22130626)
Point taken, thank you.

...but I am concerned that HN is changing for the worse.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by claudeganon on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:20AM (#22128752)
A series of ad hominem attacks that don’t address the substance of the parent are superior because...?
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by Filligree on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:22AM (#22128772)
Is it insufficiently cynical?

It's something a teenager might write, yes, because teenagers often aren't hypocritical enough to ignore the murders just because it's a nation-state doing them. That doesn't make it wrong.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kick on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:23AM (#22128777)
Answer to the first question: in the United States, yes. Whether that is a bad thing is debatable and not suited for the site we're on; try a philosophy subreddit.

The United States military has lost its privilege to play any form of moralism or rational justification after their actions over the past 30-50 years. It's no longer defense in most cases, it's assault. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, the second Iraq, invading Afghanistan for funsies, there's no point to most of it.

We've only had one success in decades, and it still wasn't even related to defense!

There's a difference between defense and imperialistic invasions, and the United States military hasn't defended much of anything at home in quite a while.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by knowa42 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:36AM (#22128933)
If you think that the only thing the U.S. military does is "assault" then you haven't really done any research at all, have you? Read up on force-projection, specifically as it relates to soft-power.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by FpUser on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:17PM (#22131457)
Assault - direct attack

Force projection - do as we say or else.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kick on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:40AM (#22128976)
Note I said most cases, which, in English, means "not all cases, but most of them."

Obviously, the U.S. Military does slightly more than assault. Proportionally not much more, but a bit more. Like football.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Black_Knights_football

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by knowa42 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:24PM (#22129500)
Oh, okay. Unless you're relying solely on your "intuition" of what the U.S. military uses resources for, please post sources or figures for your quantification of U.S. force projection and how it's "mostly" used for assault.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tracker1 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:20AM (#22128746)
So, you'd rather we keep spending too much, using too little information, and putting too many innocent people at risk? I mean, it's not like we dropped more ordinance under Obama than every president before him combined, or that the trend didn't decrease by very much after him or anything.

Personally, I do think our foreign deployments and presence should absolutely be dramatically reduced. I also think most federal spending is bureaucratic fluff. That said, I have less problem when there are efforts to stabilize or reduce spending via technology. And I find that people who try to take an ethical stance over companies offering any kind of service to the government is short sighted at best, and dangerous or destructive at worst.

In the end, this will happen, and I'd rather it go to a company that is focused on the problem (technical infrastructure for computing resources) over the government trying to build a bureaucratic mess that costs a significant amount more.

Not that everything should be outsourced. For example, I think privatized prisons are far, far, far worse for society than providing a cloud network for the federal govt.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kec on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:39AM (#22128966)
The end result of your stance is essentially arguing that the only problem with American intervention in the Middle East is that it isn't efficient enough.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tracker1 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:35PM (#22131674)
My point was, the subject at hand isn't really necessarily about what is happening with DoD, and if anything would more likely be reduced harm.

I'm not a proponent of our foreign engagements at all... however, this isn't the place where such a line should be drawn. I find that anywhere the government can more effectively reduce costs and/or improve it infrastructure should generally be preferred.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tracker1 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:36PM (#22131691)
Did you miss the part where I specifically said, "Personally, I do think our foreign deployments and presence should absolutely be dramatically reduced."
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kec on Thursday January 23, 2020 @05:42PM (#22133083)
I didn't, I was trying to point out that the unintended and inevitable outcome of making war cheaper to wage (either in dollars or lives of your own soldiers) is more war.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tracker1 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:55PM (#22134261)
As if cost is actually a deterrent for war...
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kec on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:18PM (#22135368)
It certainly is, compare Vietnam to Iraq. If LBJ and Nixon had predator drones we never would have left.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by ta999999171 on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:00PM (#22143525)
The only difference is drone operators don't speak out publicly at the same rate when they get home as boots on the ground who saw the carnage more directly and personally back then.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by ericd on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:15PM (#22130730)
Do you have a source for that quote about dropped ordnance? I’d be very surprised if he beat out the strategic bombing and artillery shelling of WW2.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tracker1 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:45PM (#22131780)
Here's an article with stats from 2015 and 2016... I spent a few minutes trying to find an article I recall from around 2014 or so, but unable to find it. There's a lot of information out there, and the number of drone strikes are incredibly large. I think the record under Trump has been roughly the same, but it's a dramatic change over before Obama. The kiloton size may or may not be smaller. More targeted drone/missile strikes vs bombs. But I believe the number of drops is much larger.

Frankly, I'd love to see most of our foreign deployments dramatically scaled back. I just don't think the mentality that nobody should provide any kind of technical services to the government would only make things worse, not better overall, and that specific criticisms shouldn't be part of decisions of infrastructure use.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/artic...

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by ericd on Saturday January 25, 2020 @03:37PM (#22148487)
That article seems to imply in the 10s of thousands per year, which is certainly a lot of airstrikes. US and Britain dropped something like 3 million tons of bombs during the strategic bombing of WW2, though. IIRC the 500 pound bomb was the most common.

And then there’s tens of millions of artillery shells, if you’re counting all ordnance.

Vietnam war had a huge amount of bombing too, with cluster bombs and the like.

I’d be a bit surprised if Obama made the top 5, but maybe.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kick on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:25AM (#22128807)
How is Obama relevant, here? I don't believe I mentioned him. HN has always leaned libertarian, and just because Ron Paul isn't running right now doesn't mean suddenly every argument that's against authoritarianism is liberal.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tracker1 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:33PM (#22131646)
The point was that drone strikes / bombings were dramatically increased under Obama and never really stopped. I also noted that it didn't decrease with Trump.

In either case, offering cloud services to the Government isn't really an authoritarian position.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by djsumdog on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:13AM (#22128686)
Yes, there is harm that will happen, but harm will happen whether it's Microsoft or Amazon. Amazon is throwing their weight around because they didn't get the multi-billion contract. It has nothing to do with Amazon or Microsoft being better stewards of ... anything. They're both massive companies with horrid business practices, led by boards who don't give a shit about war or human suffering or the poor or anything outside growth and economic goals and shutting out their competitors.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by Angostura on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:18AM (#22128725)
> you'd never guess this stuff is going to be used to and to enable murder.

This is only true, if you take it as axiomatic that armed forces have one job, which is killing and that all killing in armed conflict is simple murder. That's not a position I take.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by nova22033 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:23AM (#22128787)
you'd never guess this stuff is going to be used to and to enable murder.

DoD uses a lot of linux and other open source software. Should we stop working on that too since, according to you, it's "enabling murder"?

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by kick on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:33AM (#22128899)
Last I checked, Torvalds wasn't getting billions of dollars from the DoD to install Linux on servers. That's a false comparison, and a lazy one at that.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by jandrese on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:50AM (#22129109)
Almost every government lab I've seen has a rule that says you aren't allowed to use free software in the lab. Everything was supposed to have a vendor that was responsible for it that you were paying.

Development labs end up using Linux and other open source software all over the place, but it gets a bit more iffy when you're going into production.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by tpetry on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:12PM (#22130034)
And that is the reason Red Hat is making so much money: Whether it is free or not is not relevant but that you can pay a vendor who will fix your problems in production
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by arwineap on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:00PM (#22129213)
That's interesting...

We had to verify everything was approved through DADSM (potentially navy specific), but other than that as long as we had a legal license to run we were good.

This is what forced me into using centos for our deployed infrastructure, and mIRC as our chat client of choice.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:31AM (#22128876)
Differing views I suppose. To me I look at the new type of weaponized technologies coming out of China (that we know about) such as hypersonic missiles able to defeat most conventional mission defenses. Then I look at the salary differences between “defense” work and adtech, and I worry that our best and brightest are not working on deterrents the same way our rivals are.

Combine that with a persistent stigma against working in defense and we have a recipe of losing our technology edge within the this century if not sooner. What will our rivals decide to do once that happens?

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by FpUser on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:15PM (#22129393)
"What will our rivals decide to do once that happened?"

Nothing, you have a capacity to turn Earth into a glass fields. Also the work to improve said capacity seems to have started.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by corporate_shi11 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:25AM (#22128804)
Reality is such that militaries are necessary both for self defense and defense of the weak and vulnerable.

The US military has ensured peace and prosperity for billions around the world for decades given its formidable global presence.

Imagine the chaos and crime that would descends on a community without police or law enforcement. The world operates the exact same way. There will always be a most powerful country enforcing stability and global compliance, and I would much rather it be the US than Russia or China.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by FpUser on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:17PM (#22129419)
I prefer that to be a UN. This "ensured piece and prosperity" - you can try to explain it to a Middle East, Vietnam etc.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by aianus on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:17PM (#22130082)
Vietnamese are friendly to Americans and see America as an ally in their struggle against Chinese imperialism. The hatred of China in Vietnam is near-universal and explicit.

I've lived there but if you don't believe me, ask a few Vietnamese yourself, they're not shy about it.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by FpUser on Thursday January 23, 2020 @03:32PM (#22131637)
I actually met couple of Vietnamese (not in Vietnam though). They were not very fond of Americans to speak softly. No real hatred either (well they're very polite and I do not really now what their actual feeling were). I do believe that modern Vietmamese people are tolerant and welcomed to a tourists including the Americans. Tourists are income and people that actually did suffer war effect and immediate aftermath are mostly dead now.

Also the US did not bring "the piece and prosperity" to Vietnam unless you mean withdrawing from that murderous war that they started in a first place. What brought a relative prosperity was that their communist government did soften their stance towards market based economy. And feeling some guilt US probably contributed few pesos.

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by phreack on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:14PM (#22129388)
Here's a talk by someone who worked on software for the military, that echoes some of your feelings from an inside perspective.

https://www.calebthompson.io/talks/dont-get-distracted/

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by wenc on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:01PM (#22129941)
Interesting thoughts. I wonder if anyone here has heard of the Principle of Double Effect? [1]

On one hand, we need to be thoughtful and mindful of the ethical implications of all that we do. On the other hand, every action always has a context inside a larger system and has unintended consequences and being an ethical purist can sometimes be more harmful. Most people who are older fall somewhere between striving to do the right thing but also recognizing they cannot control all the consequences and even if they could, they cannot predict what greater harm or good may result.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect

Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by koheripbal on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:15AM (#22128699)
Is all war considered murder?
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by anthonypasq on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:32AM (#22128889)
No, but the majority of US foreign policy is.
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by koheripbal on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:05PM (#22130632)
More so, or less so, than other belligerent states it combats?
Re:Amazon asks court to halt Microsoft's work on Pentagon 'w... by anthonypasq on Friday January 24, 2020 @05:36PM (#22143066)
most countries dont engage in foreign policy that involves invading and murdering millions of civilians.