News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by ChuckMcM on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:19PM (#22111699)
Very much a way to mitigate the FTC's requirements on making advertising more distinct than organic results.

It is an unpopular opinion but I believe Google is dying. They have been for a long time. The cancer is that nothing other than search ads generates the revenue and margins they need and the margins on search ads are now down 90% from where they were in 2010.

Personally I'm long on Microsoft/Bing as a candidate for the surviving English language web index. My prediction (which isn't shared by many so don't be surprised if you disagree :-)) is that once Google's dying becomes mainstream and they start heading into ground that Apple will buy their assets, keep Maps, Search, and maybe Waymo and throw the rest away.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by jboy55 on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @05:59PM (#22112686)
They're just turning the big dial that squeezes more money out of every user. They resisted for so long, but now they can't grow YoY without turning it. It's a one-way dial too, you can never turn it back.

Yahoo did this, most easily seen back on Yahoo Messenger, where I believe they fit an ad in 6 point type between two elements.

I've seen it at plenty of places that does revenue based A/B testing. You do an A/B test, measuring $ vs User retention. Money goes up, and retention maybe is affected, but over a few weeks, it looks like its the same. So you go on to the next test. Eventually, you find you have to do drastic measures to stop bleeding money. I wish I could say how long you need to measure retention for, but its probably too long for the test to make sense.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by JMTQp8lwXL on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:39PM (#22112992)
We've reached Peak Google. It's time for newcomers to reinvent video, reinvent search, reinvent email and start all over again.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by javajosh on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:46PM (#22111984)
You're not the only one. It seems like G itself thinks that, hence all the desperate attempts to diversify - which I see as an attempt to parley a short-term cash and talent surplus into something, anything, that will have value in the long run.

It will be interesting to see what a desperate Goog might do with access to everyone's email, calendars, and docs.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by paganel on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @05:47PM (#22112578)
To be honest I’m not sure what everyone else is searching for on Google the search engine anymore. I personally use it as a Wikipedia search engine in 90% of the cases while 9% is for stackoverflow queries, other than that I get all the info I’m interested in from dedicated FB groups and different sub-reddits.

And I’m also a 40-year old guy, from what I can see at people younger than me they spend almost all their web-related time on Facebook properties: Instagram, WhatsApp groups, Facebook private groups (FB the main app is also dying), with TikTok coming strong from behind. All of these are places where Google Search doesn’t have any reach. So one could say that the 2011 mantra “all arrows behind the same big arrow” (or whatever it was) was quite correct, Google+ was Google the company’s major chance of still remaining relevant in 10 or 15 years’ time. They still have YT, too bad they don’t know how to manage it.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by Thorentis on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:04PM (#22112725)
Huh, I've just realised I'm much the same. Google is used by me primarily for (and in this order in decreasing proportion): Wikipedia search, Stackoverflow search, company name search, medical related search, current event search (sports scores, election results), (smallest minority of the time) other random queries.

Everything else I get from HN, Reddit, FB, etc.

The instant google results are the vast majority of the time taken from wikipedia. Sports scores and election results are taken from other sites that Google has started top present quite nicely, but that I could easily get elsewhere. Company name searching is basically just using Maps indirectly.

Google as a raw search query product is dying. A competitor could probably service 90%+ of queries just by being great at serving instant result previews at the top for a set of the most popular data (mass-media, wikipedia, local maps).

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by bentcorner on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @12:03AM (#22114778)
I use ddg as my default search and try !g when I'm not finding something, and it's rare that I find something on google that I couldn't find elsewhere.

Usually I find success when it's extremely niche results (usually rare error messages) that have only a few hits on google on some random forum that the other crawlers just didn't index.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by jwond on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:03PM (#22112721)
You might like DuckDuckGo and “bangs”. https://duckduckgo.com/bang
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by choathedolls on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:07PM (#22113884)
For anyone reading this thinking "what a killer feature I need to switch to DDG now". All browsers do this natively now. In Chromium engines it's found under "Manage Search Engine". In Firefox it's under "One Click Search Engine".
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by andolanra on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:47PM (#22114104)
My Firefox install has seven search engines by default in the "one-click search engine" options. By contrast, DuckDuckGo has 13000 bang shortcuts. Sure, you don't need all of them, but I use dozens: some of them almost daily (like !w for Wikipedia and !wt for Wiktionary), some sporadically (like !tw for Twitter or !a for Amazon) and some of them only rarely (e.g. I picked up a Pokémon game recently and consequently have used !bulba to quickly search Bulbapedia, a Pokémon fan wiki.) Of course I can add all those to Firefox, but DuckDuckGo already has them set up, and has many more that I can use without thinking about them. I think that still counts as a killer feature.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by choathedolls on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @10:13PM (#22114242)
Firefox is a little lacking in that department. Chromium based browsers on the other hand, anytime a search is used on a page, that gets added to the list in your browser's options.

For example, just used HN's search bar, and there it showed up in the options ready to customise keywords to my liking (if I wanted to change it).

Before anybody claims it's an additional step, it's not. DDG requires you to know what the keyword is before you use it, which is the same as having to use the search on the site before. So I guess I agree it's a killer feature if you exclusively use Firefox for the time being.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by ma2rten on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @12:57PM (#22120095)
In chrome you also just start typing the name of the site, until it autocompletes and then hit tab.

For example if I want to want search wikipedia, I type "en.w" and hit tab.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by gwenzek on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @05:45AM (#22116320)
The point of bang is that I don't have to setup anything. And it's pretty exhaustive I often use !gten, !gtfr or !gtes to specify the target language for Google translate. I'm glad I don't have to setup all this by myself, every time I change browser.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by nyolfen on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:16PM (#22113926)
you can use keyword searches as native features of chrome and ffx
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by catalogia on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:14PM (#22112814)
> "I personally use it as a Wikipedia search engine in 90% of the cases"

I use search keywords, such that when I put "wiki example" in the search bar, my browser pulls up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=example

I also do this with several other sites that I commonly use. In doing this, I've dramatically reduced the number of times I use a general purpose search engine in a day.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by jackcosgrove on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @07:29PM (#22113340)
The web has been dying since Facebook came along. The internet is growing like gangbusters though.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by sytelus on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:50AM (#22125171)
Just looked at my browser history and looks like I roughly performed 110 searches during past 24 hours and that's probably because I'm having bit slow day. Vast majority of searches were in fact work related (research papers, deep learning, coding, python, pytorch etc). I can't speak for others but I feel ultra-accelerated because of tools like Google. The knowledge hunting would be approximately 3-5 orders of magnitude slower otherwise.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by empath75 on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @07:20PM (#22113282)
Makes me wonder how much Wikipedia would be worth as a privately held company.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by fesoliveira on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:09AM (#22128647)
Thank the heavens it's not. Imagine a company controlling the most accessed information aggregation website in the world and trying to make it return a profit.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by JMTQp8lwXL on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:37PM (#22112977)
Based off these dark patterns, the penny pinching at Google is real. A company that is penny pinching -- both by spending less on employees, and nickeling/diming customers -- is a sure sign they're struggling to grow. When you to get to be Google's size, how do you continue the growth trajectory of your past? It gets harder and harder to do so. Their offers to engineers are less competitive, YouTube serves tons of ads, and Chrome is going to ban uBlock It's obvious where Google is at: strict monetization. They don't see any further growth, or they wouldn't be degrading their services.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by JoeSmithson on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:21PM (#22111729)
> "the margins on search ads are now down 90% from where they were in 2010."

Do you have a source for this?

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by lrem on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:49PM (#22112026)
This is publicly available data, published quarterly in the financial statement... I don't recall ever hearing about that kind of a drop.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by georgiecasey on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @05:56PM (#22112658)
i presume he means the increase in the traffic acquisition costs like the $12billion (!!) they pay Apple to remain the default search engine in Safari.

i always found this baffling business logic from Google. i think Google is a strong enough brand that a lot of people would switch to it if it wasn't the default. maybe not everyone would switch but not worth $12 billion a year

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by dredmorbius on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @10:57PM (#22114474)
Buying that traffic bids up the cost of any other competitor doing similarly.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by ChuckMcM on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:49PM (#22113073)
The quarterly financial statements, and a knowledge of how Google accounting works[1]. Revenue from ads is correlated to CPC (cost per click), ad inventory is correlated to ads on Google sites vs ads on "other" sites, and margin pressure is correlated with operational expenses and traffic acquisition costs. The fuzziest number to model is the ad inventory and relies on estimates of search traffic, ads serviced, and reported revenue and CPC.

[1] I worked there and paid attention at their 'life of a dollar' class they used to give Nooglers. :-)

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by bruwozniak on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:32PM (#22111852)
Funny you say that, I was just thinking the same. Their recent user hostile moves seem like desperation more than part of an evil plan.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by randomsearch on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @05:56PM (#22112657)
Google’s biggest opportunity is Cloud. They’re playing catch up but with the culture and staff they have, that’s where I’d be focussing my efforts. I think the 2020s will be the biggest decade for cloud adoption.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by GeorgeWBasic on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:50PM (#22114122)
I don't think it is. Their hard-earned reputation for canceling services is really hurting them now. They never accounted for the effect of all the users they've been continually pissing off moving up in the ranks in companies and deciding never to use Google services. The leaked communication that suggests that they could actually cancel GCP doomed any chance that that would be a big player next to AWS and Azure.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by javajosh on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @02:57AM (#22115554)
>The leaked communication that suggests that they could actually cancel GCP...

People need to stop coupling their applications to cloud services for this very reason! It really bothers me that people architect their systems tightly coupled to AWS - Amazon LOVES it, of course, because this is the kind of vendor lock-in that Oracle could only dream about. (Amazon's vendor lock in is strictly superior because it is at runtime. I don't think Oracle ever had that power.)

Its incredible that so many companies have embraced AWS so completely, never giving thought to the the fact that they are giving Bezos total power over their technology investments. The sunk costs are only going to snowball, and AWS can and will raise prices almost arbitrarily, because opting out of AWS will mean a rewrite, which is some multiple of those sunk costs. That is, a company has to recapitulate ALL the money they paid to build software ALL AT ONCE. This is an existential threat to all small businesses, and an easy "just pay extra" grumble for medium and big businesses. Again, great for Amazon, bad for everyone else.

Google can and should get in cloud by pushing cross-cloud technology that lets companies have their cake and eat it too: cloud-hosted auto-scaling applications, AND the ability to pick a new cloud vendor without a rewrite. I suspect K8s is a good push in the direction. So, yeah, it's counter-intuitive but I think G could win big by pushing vendor-independent cloud tech, starting with K8s. The dream is that Google can cancel whatever it wants, and customers will just make an account at another cloud provider and keep rolling.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by seppin on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @12:57AM (#22114997)
> I don't think it is. Their hard-earned reputation for canceling services is really hurting them now

I've only ever heard people complain about this on here, nowhere else.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by GeorgeWBasic on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @02:01AM (#22115262)
They don't typically complain, but when asked, it's common knowledge among all the programmers at work and all the ones I know. Google can't be counted on. Furthermore, it's tech types who make the decision to use GCP or not, not average Joes who use their other services, so you'd want to look more at places like this for the prevailing opinions.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by ddalex on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @12:19PM (#22119611)
> it's tech types who make the decision to use GCP or not

Perhaps at startups. At big companies, the call is made by directors and VPs that are well fined by sales people - and that's where the real money is.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by hrktb on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:42PM (#22123283)
There is the old "nobody is ever fired for choosing IBM", and I think Google actually succeeded in forging a "shouldn't we avoid Google ?" mentality.

I saw it real time with Maps changing its pricing model, where an international company reworked all their maps display. It was a lot of money, and it's not something you brush under the rug explaining the contracts are otherwise marvellous.

Then there was the whole google chat -> hangouts -> meets transitions with every variations in-between, and messaging applications are one of the most sensible tool to change in an enterprise environment. In particular the bigger it is the worse these changes will be perceived.

When came time to choose between AWS and GCP, the choice was clearly political, more than the technical merits.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by ascagnel_ on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @02:08PM (#22120854)
Stadia, from what I've heard, appears to be near-dead on arrival, and a big part of that is skepticism of streaming video games and skepticism around Google killing the service (and rendering any purchased games totally unplayable).
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by puranjay on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @10:38PM (#22114369)
Nah, Google has never been good at B2B enterprise sales. Microsoft has a massive enterprise sales network already and will find it easy to push Azure. AWS has first mover advantage.

I'm short on Google Cloud.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by sytelus on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:03AM (#22125218)
Nope. Cloud is being commoditized as we speak which means there will be a race to the bottom when it comes to the margins. Bezos has already boasted that he is willing to turn down the dial for margins all the way down if it comes to that. Right now there still lot to eat for everyone but soon scarcity of finding new customers will take hold. THen you will find companies to cut down prices to get more customers and huge margins we see now evaporate very quickly. In that setting, only Amazon has good survival skills.

In my view, the biggest opportunity is AI. If I was CEO of Google, I would make a massive investment not just in research but engineering turn-key AI systems that can give businesses a massive boost.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by seppin on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @12:57AM (#22114994)
Amazing they spent so much time chasing social with Google+ while AWS was allowed to grow with no competition.

They could have owned the cloud.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by buboard on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @08:59PM (#22113836)
you know why they re dying? because i have to add "reddit" or "stackoverflow" or "wiki" to my questions because google often gives shit results, and the mix of ads and results is hilariously confusing. If reddit and SO wake up and realize how well they can monetize their own search, google is gonna be panicking.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by AJ007 on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @03:03PM (#22121435)
I searched the comments for FTC and yours was the only that popped up.

For the record, I don’t think this is FTC compliant. It also reeks of the kind of this that regulators would adjust their laws for. Google is playing with a situation where regulators may write very explicit rules that say exactly how much labeling their ads need. A 50%-75% chop in outgoing paid clicks would be material to their earnings. They’ve been in a situation for a decade where a large chunk of their most valuable demographic had no idea they’ve been clicking on ads. That isn’t a metric they should be getting more greedy on.

Regulators could just set up a test where, if a large enough percent of users don’t know they’ve clicked on an ad, paid disclosure has to be more explicit.

The low hanging revenue fruit for Google at this point is very sparse. Financially incentivized executives are scrambling to do questionable things to hit bonuses that probably shouldn’t be attainable. Kind of like Boeing.

Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by a_imho on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @03:01AM (#22115570)
They are not dying, but the perception has been long changing from one of tech dearest to be critical by default of Google.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by ngold on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:29PM (#22111816)
As an advertising company, where are they losing money?
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by birdyrooster on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:30PM (#22111820)
That would be a huge mistake for Apple, and I cannot imagine it passing the scrutiny of anti trust regulators.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by corporateslave5 on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:41PM (#22111928)
Not only this, but they are also no longer near top of the market for software pay.
Re:Every Google result now looks like an ad by typest on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @12:51AM (#22114977)
What would you say is top of the market then? Google seems to pay pretty highly.