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Re:The Internet of Beefs by dcolkitt on Monday January 20, 2020 @06:41PM (#22103006)
The thing is it's not just religion. There's been a commensurate, if not larger, decline in participation in "civic organizations" as well.

Sports leagues, fraternal societies (like the Elks or Masons), parent-teach organizations, volunteer organizations (like the Boy Scouts or Red Cross), and labor unions have all seen their memberships steadily decline for the better part of the last 50 years.[1] Doubly so among the youngest generations.

Beyond that, in general we have much fewer close social ties than we used to. Marriage rates have plummeted[2], which means many fewer people have a spouse. Surveys show that Americans have only about half the number of close friends as they did a generation ago.[3] The sizable majority of Americans don't even know their neighbors.[4] And of course birth rates have plummeted, which means that the number of siblings the average person has, and eventually aunts, uncles and cousins are all decreasing.

In general the central sociological fact of the modern-era is the unprecedented degree of social atomization that most of us now face.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/14/as-u-s-marr... [3] https://www.barna.com/research/friends-loneliness/ [4] https://www.studyfinds.org/sign-of-the-times-75-of-adults-ar...

Re:The Internet of Beefs by pixl97 on Monday January 20, 2020 @06:49PM (#22103059)
Our social connections have been replaced with commercial ones. Where at one point we socialized to relieve boredom and need, now we have never ending entertainment and those that would capitalize on selling it to us over everything else.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by DoreenMichele on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:29PM (#22103561)
And, yet, here you are talking with other people all over the world for free.

Someone older than me, of the hippie generation, once said to me "There were like three TV channels and they went off the air at 10pm. If you were still awake after that, there was nothing to do but sex and drugs."

I strongly suspect the 24/7 availability of free entertainment, live online discussion, etc is a large contributing factor to the trend towards celibacy. I don't think this is a bad thing. And it's being achieved without some preacher putting the fear of God in you and telling you impure thoughts will get you an eternity in hell.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by egypturnash on Monday January 20, 2020 @10:16PM (#22104023)
After a significant portion of my life spent online, I have kind of come to the conclusion that typing to other people is, in a lot of ways, a fundamentally different experience than talking to them.

It fills the same emotional needs just enough to make it hard to get up off your ass and put the effort into going out and finding people with common interests and making friends with some of them, but it does not provide anywhere near a full emotional diet.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by hug on Monday January 20, 2020 @10:41PM (#22104147)
I agree with you, but I also think it's worth pointing out that I feel like the inverse is also true.

'Typing to people' is different to talking to them, but it has its own very real and rich reward, that I feel is different to but overlaps with talking.

That overlap means that yes, sometimes my need for connection with other people can be sustained entirely by typing, but not forever.

Along the same lines, I do not get exactly the same reward from talking to people as I do typing, and I find that after several days without spending some time thinking and typing to other people, I itch to get back and just have a back and forth about something online.

Usually, I prefer this to be something that I and the person I'm talking to agree on, and we're plumbing the depths of shared experience, but sometimes to much chagrin it definitely is 'beef'.

Sometimes I wonder if this is because the sort of people I type to online are very different to most of the people I talk to offline, but I don't honestly think that explains the whole thing.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by RugnirViking on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:41AM (#22107266)
I would agree with you, with the caveat that I think that I would much rather live without typing to people online if I had to choose one or the other.

Typing is great, theres a certain density of information and shorthand inherent in how we write and use punctuation (much like how a lot can be said with gestures and facial features) as well as a sort of shared purpose (we all came to this website to have a particular kind of experience, everyone present is in a particular sort of mood)

Re:The Internet of Beefs by egypturnash on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:37PM (#22111888)
Oh yeah, it has its good points, I met my SO via typing to them a lot.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by apatters on Monday January 20, 2020 @11:37PM (#22104345)
Why do you think the celibacy rate has risen sharply in young men over the last decade, but remained constant in young women? They both have access to the same entertainment options.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by philwelch on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @01:04AM (#22104636)
I suspect it's because women can now be far more selective about the men they sleep with.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by dTal on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:43AM (#22105515)
In a single word - Tinder.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by henrygrew on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:21AM (#22105424)
Because of the blue pill red pill movement and incel culture
Re:The Internet of Beefs by dTal on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @04:42AM (#22105512)
I think you've got cause and effect mixed up there. "Incel" stands for "involuntary celibacy". That's not an explanation, that's a description of the thing you're trying to explain.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by lowdose on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @07:40AM (#22106374)
But that hippie generation forbade all sex & drugs so successive generations have to do something. We have become over domesticated chimps that have been conditioned to think having sex with a lot of people is a bad thing and anything other than alcohol is a no no. Good a more open minded sentiment is starting to develop but let's not blame technology when cultural heritage is sufficient to explain trends.

If everybody had sex today tomorrow would be awesome. I welcome a world where women are not slut shamed and it is normal for a 20 year old girl to brag at the office that she had an amazing fuck Yesterday from a random hit-and-run.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by raxxorrax on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @10:12AM (#22107568)
I don't think so. The hippie movement was a reaction to extremely stiff social norms that are not at all applicable today. We have a lot to thank them for their disobedience to that.

Today, outside of your family and maybe some friends nobody really cares about your drug use or sex life. There are some prohibitions by law, but I doubt these are too relevant.

I often ask myself from which cult people have escaped or how old they are if they indict current society of being restrictive or even suppressing in some way. Frankly, I don't see that at all. Maybe it is a wish, since that would mean that society cares at least somehow.

Maybe I am lucky, but I don't really see restrictive norms anywhere. You see a lot of people not caring though. The internet is no reference here. You can save a puppy from its inevitable demise and certainly someone will be deeply offended by your actions.

> If everybody had sex today tomorrow would be awesome [...]

Always a better tomorrow... but I highly doubt that. Some might crave sex and some might crave intimacy. Anyone bragging in the office about hook ups would be suspected to seeking confirmation. The same is true for males since quite some time. Cultural suppression? I don't think so. Because if you would do that, I think the repercussions would be almost negligible. Some will judge you, but that will happen if you wear the same pants twice. Maybe not a bad choice of fetish, but certainly no fight for more freedom.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by FisDugthop on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @04:17PM (#22122152)
The norms haven't changed, but society is more atomized and thus the norms can't exert the pressure that they once did.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by excalibur on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @08:36AM (#22106720)
> But that hippie generation forbade all sex & drugs

Say what now

Re:The Internet of Beefs by rbrtl on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:46AM (#22107309)
I believe they are pointing out that a number of the participants in the Summer of Love, went on to drive political agenda that proscribed similar exploration by their children.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by rowathray on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:46AM (#22107316)
>I welcome a world where women are not slut shamed and it is normal for a 20 year old girl to brag at the office that she had an amazing fuck Yesterday from a random hit-and-run.

No, you don't. I work with a (trans) woman who has absolutely no sense of "slut shame" and listening to her recount tales of her sexual exploits every day makes me dread a job I used to find fun and rewarding.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by jcadam on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:45AM (#22107301)
Since I can find groups of people who share the same beliefs, values, hobbies, and interests as I do online, I don't have to mix with icky people from different backgrounds in real life just because they're all that's available to me in my local area to hang out with.

I can stay in my bubble now. Thanks Internet!

Re:The Internet of Beefs by tmccrary55 on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:44PM (#22103654)
Free but monetized.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by DoreenMichele on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:45PM (#22103660)
Very well monetized such that there are paid moderators.

I'm very much okay with this.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by Nextgrid on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @02:21AM (#22104948)
I'm assuming you are talking about HN.

I'd be very happy if this was also the case for other networks. Feels like a competent moderation team (not necessarily paid; forums in the good old days had people competing to be voluntary moderators) would make mainstream social media a lot more enjoyable.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by DoreenMichele on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @02:31AM (#22104989)
Feels like a competent moderation team (not necessarily paid

Moderation seems to generally be better when it is paid. I've done plenty of moderating in my time. I currently am the moderator or a number of things. I'm generally a good moderator.

I'm also dirt poor and I resent the fact that I do so many things for free for people without it coming back to me and my extreme poverty actively interferes at times with my ability to tend to unpaid obligations while I try to eke out a living doing something else for a bit, etc.

I generally have a pretty good track record of doing things for free that I'm willing to do for free and not dumping on other people about how they aren't paying me to do this, but I have seen plenty of moderators over the years have a snit fit about how the membership is ungrateful and they do this out of the goodness of their heart and You People need to behave better, appreciate us more, and quit being so much drama since it's all free, dagnabbit.

I think if you really, truly value something, you should be okay with people being able to do that work and actually somehow pay their own bills because of it.

Reddit is sort of a weird grey zone where Reddit actually makes money and has paid staff, but most moderation on Reddit is unpaid. And I run a few Reddits and I'm still trying to figure out what I think of that weird beast.

But, generally speaking, as someone who has done tons of volunteer work in my life and has also spent a lot of years very poor where all that "goodness of my heart" crapola didn't do a fucking thing for me when I needed some "goodness" from someone else, I think if you resent the service you use for free somehow making money and actually paying its staff, (trying to think of a more PC way to end this sentence and failing -- suffice it to say, I don't have a high opinion of such people).

Re:The Internet of Beefs by Nextgrid on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @02:44AM (#22105042)
I wasn't speaking against paying moderators, just saying that even voluntary moderation would be better than the status quo for a lot of communities (it's insane how much work people will give for free in exchange for some random internet points, see Stack Exchange for an example).

There are a lot of people out there who would be happy to work for free to help their community out; forums used to work like that before being made mostly irrelevant by the social media garbage. If you consider that a problem then it's not for you and that's okay. (I wouldn't do it full time either now that I have a job, but back in my teenage years I had lots of free time that I was happy to donate for free, and indeed my Stack Exchange account's reputation - useless internet points - is a testimony to that.)

Paying people means the company needs to put in a significant amount of resources (technical, legal and staff) to manage that, something companies might not want to invest in (at least not right now). Random internet points is at least a stop-gap solution to let the community manage moderation without much investment nor management from the company, and would definitely be a good upgrade from the status-quo.

As a counterpoint, for people having their community's best interests at heard, being paid might actually be a downgrade. I contributed to Stack Exchange years ago for free because I liked to help people and help the community I was part of. I did so on my own time and terms. Being paid would've meant I now had a duty to do it and I couldn't for example decide that I wasn't in the mood to contribute one evening because it was now a job. The other issue is that being paid means you have the company's best interests at heart instead of the community, and those might not align. It's easy to break rules or "look the other way" for the sake of the community when you're a volunteer, less so when your paycheck depends on it.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by DoreenMichele on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @02:47AM (#22105046)
Sorry. I think we are mostly talking past each other. It's nearly midnight and I'm getting a bit frayed around the edges at this point.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by Nextgrid on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @02:51AM (#22105061)
No worries!
Re:The Internet of Beefs by smabie on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:00PM (#22103409)
Is religion really that different?
Re:The Internet of Beefs by nvahalik on Monday January 20, 2020 @07:21PM (#22103215)
I want to upvote this 10x.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by NotSammyHagar on Monday January 20, 2020 @07:49PM (#22103346)
Every generation would always talk about the destructive increase in entertainment in their time. My grandfather said his parents told him he listened to the radio too much when he was a kid.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by ericdykstra on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:23PM (#22103534)
Your great-grandparents were right, it's just hard to imagine listening to radio with family being "destructive", when today people have less friends than ever and are literally choosing Netflix, video games, and pornography over having a social life.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by Polylactic_acid on Monday January 20, 2020 @09:05PM (#22103749)
I think entertainment is a lesser issue to the real problem which is car centric urban design. We all live so far apart that it is very time consuming, expensive and tedious to meet other people. Rather than just stepping outside and walking/cycling to someone you have to own a car, spend 30 minutes driving and then 30 minutes back. Or you could just play a video game with them over the internet in the few minutes it takes to set up.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by ericdykstra on Monday January 20, 2020 @09:13PM (#22103782)
There are certainly a number of factors, but the prevalence and addictiveness of entertainment technology is without a doubt a major factor.

Plenty of hikikomori in the safe, walkable Tokyo. What's keeping them inside?

Re:The Internet of Beefs by Ghjklov on Monday January 20, 2020 @09:28PM (#22103851)
>What's keeping them inside?

I would guess they've shut themselves in and away from the shame and rejection by society and have found the tiny inkling of happiness possible in that hole. And as society continues to rejects them further for being in a hole, the hole only gets deeper.

Understandable, since the minute they go outside, everything is stacked against them and even with help, they probably won't be able to compete on the same level as the normal people who didn't fall into the hole. I can't win outside, but I can be happy in my hole. Hole good, outside bad.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by Polylactic_acid on Monday January 20, 2020 @09:25PM (#22103834)
I'll admit I know very little of the culture in Japan so there are quite likely other factors. I am just talking from personal experience as a 2x year old in Australia. I would happily meet up with friends regularly but it never happens because they live too far away, most of us do not have cars and because most of us live with parents, meetups tend to be in the city where the only activity is drinking. Video games perhaps allow us to have fun when we might have otherwise forced ourselves to go out but I think the primary factor for me is how difficult it is.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by AgentOrange1234 on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:41PM (#22103633)
You make it sound like a bad thing. Have you met people? Do you really want to spend more of your time with them? :)
Re:The Internet of Beefs by arbitrary_name on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @12:27AM (#22104503)
Yes. And yes. I'll do anything to hang out with people, especially the ones I like.

You sound like you're making an excuse for a lack of friends by implying there is no one worth being friends with? Perhaps I've inferred too much, I sure hope so...

Re:The Internet of Beefs by howlin on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @02:10AM (#22104897)
To be fair to the poster, virtually anyone you meet in real life will be far less interesting than chatting with someone in a specialized forum like hacker news.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by Plyphon_ on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @06:36AM (#22106004)
That's such a narrow view on what value people can offer you, it saddens me.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by smelendez on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:25PM (#22103537)
I think some of this is when you're first exposed to a new genre of art/entertainment, you don't really know how to explore it and everything kind of looks or sounds the same.

You see what's unique about the overall style over and over, and you don't yet see what's unique about each work, so the art form seems simplistic and repetitive even if it is no more so than others you already enjoy.

Re:The Internet of Beefs by headgasket on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:40PM (#22103627)
For a philosophical reflexion along these lines please check out Byung-Chul Han « in the swarm ». Written a while ago, translated to English only recently.
Re:The Internet of Beefs by claudiawerner on Monday January 20, 2020 @08:39PM (#22103623)
>Our social connections have been replaced with commercial ones.

This one phrase combines Marx's notion of alienation and commodity fetishism into one - it's odd how relevant Marx's sociological analysis is today.