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Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by cortesoft on Friday January 10, 2020 @11:04PM (#22018041)
So how SHOULD this problem be solved? How should account recovery work?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by adrr on Friday January 10, 2020 @11:46PM (#22018198)
Walk into a store and provide a government ID and the original SIM card. If customer doesn’t have the sim/phone, send a recovery code to the billing address on file in lieu of the SIM card.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by chewz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @05:11AM (#22019171)
> Walk into a store and provide a government ID and the original SIM card.

This is how it works in Poland since September 2019, after some recent SIM-swap attacks. You can swap SIM or get a replacement if stolen only at store showing government ID. It is free of charge with Orange and not always free with T-mobile.

But this has some downsides in real life.

1) I had to walk my 88 yo Mom to the store to swap SIM card.

2) Every clerk at every shop can do that so for a determined criminal it is possible to bribe or threaten one.

3) Virtual operators (MVNOs) usually do not have physical locations and there is a dozen of them.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by Nextgrid on Saturday January 11, 2020 @11:28AM (#22020686)
The problem is that the ID is still checked by the clerk. They could be bribed or tricked by a fake ID.

A recovery code snail-mailed/e-mailed to the account holder when they first open the account is the correct way to go, and if they can't provide it they need to go through a lengthy process where many factors are used to authenticate them (verify their physical address, verify their ID, ask to confirm last call records, billing details, etc).

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by tinus_hn on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:06PM (#22023380)
You can require the clerk to note the document ID to avoid bribery.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by pas on Sunday January 12, 2020 @09:53AM (#22026507)
How would this work exactly?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by tinus_hn on Sunday January 12, 2020 @06:36PM (#22030536)
The clerk has to use some kind of online system to connect the new sim to the customers phone number. The system would obviously require the clerk to authenticate himself and could require him to enter the passport number or other document ID he checked to verify the customers identity.

If later it turns out this was a sim swapping attack you can verify if the clerk entered a valid document ID. He can’t do that without having been presented a proper document, so you can tell if he checked.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @11:56AM (#22036160)
Its just convenience over security. Lot of things can be done but then the extra burden that companies have to go through. Think about that people don't use app based authentication because it's inconvenient even though it matters to them. How can you expect carriers to do it
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by tinus_hn on Monday January 13, 2020 @12:21PM (#22036438)
That’s easy, just make the carrier financially liable for the damages caused by sim swapping attacks.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by pas on Tuesday January 14, 2020 @03:47AM (#22042958)
Ah, thanks.

I wasn't sure how would you solve the problem of verifying the ID card without showing the previously recorded number to the clerk. But simply requiring to every time just punch in the ID (and maybe scan the whole card to check the photo later) could work - if the system only returns a big OK or BAD signal.

Currently here, in Hungary, the clerks just photocopy the IDs though. And there was a big scandal a few years ago (in connection to the ISIL/ISIS attacks in EU) about some groups obtaining hundreds of thousands of SIMs for just a few names.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by istjohn on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:45AM (#22019399)
On your second point, a determined criminal could always deploy rubber-hose cryptanalysis on a 2-factor authentication scheme, but it's still a significant improvement.

Your first drawback is substantial, though.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by chewz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:02AM (#22019447)
> criminal could always deploy rubber-hose cryptanalysis

That would be smart criminal with means. I was thinking more of a hood with fat neck passing $20 to clerk assistant to obtain SIM for $5k fraud.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by paranoidrobot on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:21AM (#22019516)
Or like the recent case where it's alleged that carrier employees were actually in on SIM swap scams.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/10/att-employees-he...

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by chewz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:27AM (#22019537)
The clerk is looking at ID and comparing with data in the system. If bribed he can always claim that ID looked legit or he made honest mistake.

So easy for evildoers and so much friction for law-abiding customers.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ryanlol on Saturday January 11, 2020 @09:17AM (#22019962)
I think most people fail to realize that excellent fake IDs cost like $50. (A tad more in the EU because of the lower drinking age)
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by adrr on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:11PM (#22020953)
If you make the carrier liable for damages in case of fraud, there would be process to mitigate the risk from one bad actor. Like the bank requires a manager approval for certain high risk transactions like international wires.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @11:57AM (#22036174)
Too long of a moon shot. Generally the T&C are limited to actual loss, like you lost your internet for 2 days so they'll reimburse you for 2 days of bill but not if you lost a business deal. Similarly in case of airline if you missed your game. they're not responsible for the game tickets
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by Lucadg on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:26AM (#22018335)
What if you are abroad? My debit card was recently blocked and I had to wait until I went back, walked in the bank and show my face and ID.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ozim on Saturday January 11, 2020 @03:30AM (#22018886)
Before you go abroad you could notify your bank. Then in period you declared you are abroad they should lower expectation from "in person and ID" to phone call and other means of verification. After that period you are automatically back to normal security.

That is for example how my debit card works. If I want to use it abroad I have to turn that feature on for whatever time I am abroad.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by egwor on Saturday January 11, 2020 @04:25AM (#22019061)
In Europe you have a telephone PIN codes, you have number generators on the app. There are lots of ways to authenticate yourself. IN Europe you no longer need to tell them whether you're abroad or not; I guess the ML algo's that monitor for fraud are so much better than before that this isn't needed.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by frutiger on Saturday January 11, 2020 @05:58AM (#22019282)
> IN Europe you no longer need to tell them whether you're abroad or not

The same is true with my major US bank (and probably other banks too).

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by alamortsubite on Saturday January 11, 2020 @04:33PM (#22022476)
YMMV. An ING ATM in Romania swallowed my gf's U.S. Santander card a couple months ago. We were told it was because she hadn't set a travel notice.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @11:58AM (#22036187)
Losing a bank card isn't as critical as losing a phone # so companies have to act quickly. Think about it - Can you live without your bank card for few days vs living without your #
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by Lucadg on Saturday January 11, 2020 @11:35AM (#22020725)
I'm going abroad all the time and I'm sure this wouldn't work anyway. Last time I was in their office I realized how backwards they are.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by cortesoft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @05:48PM (#22022936)
So the bad guy can just notify the bank that you are traveling abroad, and then use the easier method to gain access.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by kelnos on Saturday January 11, 2020 @09:12PM (#22023978)
I think we just need to be prepared for these sorts of things. Travel with cash, your debit card, and one or two credit cards. If you can afford it, have a backup SIM (Twilio sells SIM cards for about $3 and the cost to keep them activated is $1/mo, and nothing more if you don't use it [0]). Use a Twilio or Google Voice number that you don't use for anything else for 2FA or account recovery for services that require a phone number (some providers reject these numbers, but many will accept them).

[0] Full disclosure: I work at Twilio and built the first version of the wireless product, so I'm a bit biased.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @12:00PM (#22036205)
It's about convenience. 99% of the people will take convenience over security. Changing behaviour is difficult
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by kelnos on Monday January 13, 2020 @07:15PM (#22040325)
I get that, but if you want to remain reasonably safe from a SIM swap attack, this is what you have to do.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by aiiane on Saturday January 11, 2020 @03:15AM (#22018840)
Cool. What store? Do all services that provide accounts need physical stores now? How do you ensure the store endpoints are trustworthy, and actually checking said IDs and SIMs?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by cortesoft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:38AM (#22018365)
I meant for the services currently relying on SMS for account recovery... for example, how should you recover your gmail account if you lose access?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fauigerzigerk on Saturday January 11, 2020 @05:16AM (#22019179)
Use backup verification codes and a recovery email address.

Also, remember the date when you created your Google account. The best way to find that date may be to look at the first email you received in the account.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by hanney on Saturday January 11, 2020 @06:57AM (#22019428)
".. a recovery email address"

This just moves your security issues to another account.. how many layers of recovery email address are you willing to go before hitting the end?

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fauigerzigerk on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:39AM (#22019576)
What you can do with email is move the problem to your most secure account or to an account that you know how to recover under essentially all circumstances.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @12:01PM (#22036227)
As I mentioned before that it's just convenience. SMS based authentication is flawed and is also prone to SS7 Attacks but people just do it because it's simple. Nothing in the world is hack proof
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ekianjo on Saturday January 11, 2020 @04:54AM (#22019127)
what store for online-only services?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by incompatible on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:41AM (#22019586)
Yes, like my mobile service is provided by a German supermarket chain that has outsourced the operation to somebody else, who run it as a virtual network over somebody else's cell network. The nearest of these supermarkets is hundreds of kilometres away, and the checkout operators are unlikely to be of much help.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fastball on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:22AM (#22018319)
Photo ID seems like enough, no?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by adrr on Saturday January 11, 2020 @01:01AM (#22018439)
Problem with a government photo ID, There's no way to verify its authentic besides a visual inspection. I consider them as secure as SMS 2FA. For $200 and someone could get passable ID with your name on it.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by PeterisP on Saturday January 11, 2020 @02:40AM (#22018721)
That's the key problem that US needs to solve - the businesses don't really have a solid gov't ID system to fall back on. In most of Europe (UK seems to be more like USA as far as I understand) passing on a counterfeit ID to a mobile shop is harder (and more rare) than paying with counterfeit money, the IDs can be checked, employees are required to verify online if that ID has been reported lost or stolen, etc.

I mean, in Europe if criminals want to get a bunch of stuff on credit from some place with a disposable identity, they generally recruit poor/homeless people with real IDs, because that is simpler/cheaper/safer than trying to do it with counterfeit IDs.

SMS hijacking, just as the core identity theft issue is so much rare elsewhere - it demonstrates that it's a solvable issue if the USA wanted to solve it. (in some sense the discussion on identity theft reminds me of https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na...) However, the straightforward way to do that would require a proper single centralized (i.e. federal) gov't ID issued to almost all people, which seems to be anathema in USA.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by jaclaz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @05:47AM (#22019258)
>In most of Europe (UK seems to be more like USA as far as I understand) passing on a counterfeit ID to a mobile shop is harder (and more rare) than paying with counterfeit money, the IDs can be checked, employees are required to verify online if that ID has been reported lost or stolen, etc.

Can you detail which "most" of Europe you are talking about?

In Italy, while obviously you have to produce an ID card, there is no way that it can be checked online by "an employer", only Police (and Carabinieri) can do those checks, and of course ony for Italian issued ID's, moreover in some other businesses besides SIM card selling where the ID is needed (as an example hotels, AirBnB's and similar, car or tools renting, etc.) the actual employee never had a formal, official training to recognize forged ID's so everything is demanded to the single employee common sense and experience/knowledge (often zero or next to zero).

Particularly with "foreign" or "uncommon" pieces of ID's even if Italian (besides the "normal" ID cards and passports there are a number of other documents that have ID value) it is extremely difficult to understand if it is forged.

In UK AFAIK there is no national ID card, so you are limited to passport and/or (if valid for the scope) the driver license.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fastball on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:50AM (#22020438)
Plus Italy's national ID is laughably insecure. It's a laminated piece of paper. I remember when I was growing up I had an Italian friend in the UK who went out to a bar for her actual 18th birthday. When they asked for ID, she showed it to them and they kicked us out because they thought it was fake. It was not.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by jaclaz on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:10PM (#22020947)
No, it isn't (anymore), not everywhere, but in spots.

For the record - for a period it was laminated, and then it was forbidden to laminate it (as forgeries were somewhat simpler with the laminated one, though I don't know the details).

Old ID card (paper, large, duration - theorical - 5 years, then extended to 10 years, practically indestructible, i.e. they actually lasted the 5 or 10 years):

https://carinola.modulisticacomune.it/modulistica/categorie/...

New ID card (electronic, credit card size, with chip[1], duration - theorical - 10 years, usually illegible after 2 or 3 years in a wallet unless you use a protective cover):

https://www.formatrieti.it/carta-didentita-elettronica

And whether you get the one or the other may depend on the city (comune) as most will use all the empty paper documents they have in storage before starting issuing the new electronic format.

[1] for which noone or nearly noone has a reader BTW, the whole stuff is somehow experimental, even now that we have an app (Android only):

https://www.cartaidentita.interno.gov.it/identificazione-fis...

https://www.idea.ipzs.it/

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fastball on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:45AM (#22020416)
You can get a federal ID. It's called a passport card. It costs $65.

The US also has the REAL ID[0] standard that requires IDs to meet minimum standards in order to be accepted by the federal government.

If carriers just required a REAL ID compliant ID in order to get a new SIM, and actually checked it via the chip or magnetic strip, I think we'd be good.

[0] https://www.dhs.gov/real-id

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by CaptainZapp on Monday January 13, 2020 @10:47AM (#22035440)
You can get a federal ID. It's called a passport card. It costs $65.

Which is usually a really crappy idea when you want to save a few bucks compared to a real passport.

They're umpteen stories of heartbreak and hurt, by people not being allowed to board an international flight, or a cruise which stops at destinations not covered by a passport card.

They're also those that thought it's a great idea to get them for their kids.

With the same consequence. A passport card does not allow you to fly internationally. Not even to Mexico or Canada.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fastball on Tuesday January 14, 2020 @03:52PM (#22049124)
Obviously not, it's not a passport. It's a card.

I'm not saying use it for international travel, I'm saying use it as an ID? Literally any American citizen can get an ID card for $65 that is accepted everywhere someone asks you for ID.

If we started taking things a bit more seriously, we could also get that fee down by subsidizing it.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by vladvasiliu on Saturday January 11, 2020 @03:30AM (#22018887)
I have a counterpoint from my experience in France.

A few years back I have lost my phone and went to get a new SIM. The attendant in the shop only had a quick look over my ID card. He didn't scan it nor did he enter the ID number in the computer to check anything. I think he only verified that the name was the same as the one on file and the photo looked like me.

The same happens at the post office when you go to collect a parcel / registered mail.

On the other hand, in almost every bar I've been, staff would do a quick check with a pen on every 50 € note they would get, and those notes are fairly common (two cocktails in a random bar in Paris can often cost more than 20 €). I don't know how effective that is in actually detecting counterfeit bills, but there's clearly more effort that what the other clerk did.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by tialaramex on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:06AM (#22020191)
The pen contains a chemical that interacts with the paper that's always used to make these bank notes. Specifically it blackens the starch found in wood pulp, and the paper in your laser printer, photocopier, etcetera uses wood pulp because that's cheap. Bank notes use a higher quality paper and so they aren't turned black.

This forces crooks to use more expensive and traceable high quality papers for their counterfeit notes or they'll get rejected in stores and bars.

Having IDs that actually look up to anything at all is a relatively modern idea. When I was born if you suspected a passport in my country of being bogus it'd probably take a bunch of clerks several hours of physically looking through filing cabinets to check.

And where we build systems that can check often people don't. The UK government built a system which lets a driver prove to the government who they are and then get a token value back which they can give to anyone - that token can be exchanged for viewing the government records for that driver. So e.g. hire firms could insist on this token to see you're not disqualified and actually have the entitlements your physical driving license says you have.

They don't. Some of them will let you give them this token reluctantly but all prefer you give them a print out, which obviously you could just fake.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @12:03PM (#22036253)
I still think the system is very much gameable. In US atleast it'll take lot of time. We still have to swipe cards and checks are accepted
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by amaccuish on Sunday January 12, 2020 @02:07PM (#22028399)
I'm in retail in the UK at the moment. For doing credit, the main way we use is by drivers license. I plug the details into a form at the till and check the face. It does an online check with the DVLA.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by willvarfar on Saturday January 11, 2020 @02:37AM (#22018711)
I’m not in the US, but the only ID card without a chip that I can think of here is a European driving license, which is just a plastic credit-card-sized thing that is often used as informal verification eg to collect a parcel.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by pta2002 on Saturday January 11, 2020 @07:15AM (#22019488)
Not necessarily, all IDs here in Portugal have a chip that can be used to verify its authenticity.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by scintill76 on Saturday January 11, 2020 @05:25AM (#22019208)
$200 and greater risk of getting caught -- that's still a step forward. Right now it only takes sitting at home spending a few cents to call customer service and social engineering them.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by rahuldottech on Saturday January 11, 2020 @02:31AM (#22018690)
This is not true everywhere. There are Aadhar cards in India where you can confirm your identity with biometrics at any store using government-provided equipment that many stores have.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fastball on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:43AM (#22020403)
My DL has a barcode that can be swiped. They already use it at grocery stores to confirm that you are over 21 and that it's a real ID.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by Nextgrid on Saturday January 11, 2020 @11:32AM (#22020707)
Does the bar code act as a key to lookup a record in a central database, or does it just encode "I am 21, trust me" without any cryptographic signature?

Unless it's the former it's as good as a standard paper ID as far as forgeries go. If anything, having it machine-readable decreases security as it means the person inspecting it spends less time looking at it and just scans it in a machine.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fastball on Saturday January 11, 2020 @11:39AM (#22020748)
I can almost guarantee it's not the latter.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by wool_gather on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:48PM (#22021192)
You would lose; the barcodes are just machine-readable packaging of the information already on the licenses: name, DOB, address, etc.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by konschubert on Saturday January 11, 2020 @02:11PM (#22021688)
A sim transfer/ account recovery process should come with a transition period of multiple days during which SMSs with warnings are sent to the original sim card.

On top of that, one could think of: A passphrase to authenticate a number transfer to another sim.

Sending a code through physical mail.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Monday January 13, 2020 @12:04PM (#22036265)
I've implemented something like this at Dontport. There are few work arounds but again security isn't something that's on top of traditional carrier because it's a problem with a small set of people
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by konschubert on Monday January 13, 2020 @01:12PM (#22036974)
Nice product!

https://dontport.com/

Do you know if something like this exists in europe?

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ahaseeb on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:40PM (#22132462)
Not yet, but soon we'll launch in Europe too
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by wyxuan on Friday January 10, 2020 @11:44PM (#22018188)
Apps like Google authenticator, or more conveniently, a Google voice number. The Google voice solution works well since it can't be Sim swapped, and can be accessed via email (admittedly, a potential downside).
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by justincormack on Saturday January 11, 2020 @04:15AM (#22019026)
Google voice is a US only service.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by cortesoft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:38AM (#22018366)
How do you recover your google voice account if you lose that?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by erikig on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:46AM (#22018397)
And down the rabbit hole we go...
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by missingrib on Saturday January 11, 2020 @12:47PM (#22021183)
Long recovery passphrase that you write down and keep in a safe
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by cortesoft on Saturday January 11, 2020 @10:46PM (#22024328)
And if you lose that?
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by imtringued on Saturday January 11, 2020 @03:52PM (#22022216)
Well first of all using a password manager should be the last resort recovery strategy. Unlike device based 2FA a password manager allows you to make an unlimited number of backups.

After that 2FA should always be device specific. If you want to do 2FA with your phone then the 2FA challenge should not get sent via an identifier like a phone number that may change owners. Instead you should download a 2FA app that generates a private/public key pair where the public key is linked to your account. That way the only thing you need to do is wipe your phone remotely if it gets lost.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by fulafel on Saturday January 11, 2020 @08:35AM (#22019767)
A web of trust style arrangement would be interesting, 2/3 of previously named recovery pals would have to verify you.
Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ak39 on Saturday January 11, 2020 @03:12AM (#22018830)
What about setting up two mobile phone numbers for recipients of the recovery code: 123 sent to phone #1 and 456 sent to phone #2? (Phone #1 is yours and phone #2 is your elected trusted partner’s)

Won’t this work?

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by josteink on Saturday January 11, 2020 @03:55AM (#22018963)
Who should single people sign up as #2? Their mom? And what if your SO is currently unavailable?

This is a terrible scheme.

Re:SMS is not 2FA-secure by ak39 on Saturday January 11, 2020 @04:41AM (#22019093)
Doesn't have to be SO. It can be a trusted friend who knows in advance that you may voice call them in a password recovery scenario (voice calls not via text).

Edit: regarding the "lack of availability" at the point of wanting to reset the password: the urgency of resetting passwords should be considered a lesser inconvenience than the risk of having lost control of your account through insecure 2FA.

(I am simply supporting my original brain storming thought through ... I am not married to this idea in any way or form. Just a thought.)