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Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by sneak on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:40PM (#21972388)
If customers don’t want this stuff, why isn’t there a competing company offering non-DRM tractors?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by lostgame on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:54PM (#21972547)
If you don't know the answer to that - you may have wanted to think it through a little more.

Manufacturing at scale is hard and expensive. John Deere has been doing it for years, creating the most reliable tractors in the world for decades and has only recently decided to bend customers over to give them the ol' in-out-in-out.

A new brand would need to start from almost smaller than scratch, and have tens of million dollars of investment to even get started producing their own tractors. Then they'd have the uphill battle of a set of people who are extremely reliant on these machines to trust a new company with no track record with highly mission-critical equipment.

It would be an incredibly high-risk investment, with little to no guarantee of success.

Instead, as the article says - these farmers are not buying new tractors from anyone at the moment.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by solatic on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:24PM (#21972883)
In today's market, your argument doesn't hold water.

A new brand would need to start from smaller than scratch? So what? People start new companies every day.

It would require tens of millions of dollars of investment? So what? We keep being told how capital markets are just sloshing with cash looking for investment opportunities; that one of the reasons for rising inequality is due to the dearth of investment opportunities for the rich to use to seek returns.

They'd have trouble finding customers willing to give them a shot? So what? Every startup has this problem. You solve it by differentiating yourself from your incumbent competitor. When your competitor is so hated that they're getting negative press in national news outlets and state legislatures are being pressured to pass laws, your differentiation proposition is practically written for you.

I'm sure there are tractor upstarts out there trying to get funding. The question is, if they're not getting funding then why not, and why doesn't anybody know about them?

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by zozbot234 on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:59PM (#21973242)
Capital markets are looking for worthwhile investment opportunities. An established ag-implements manufacturer can probably use that sort of risk capital to expand into making tractors, or something like that. Getting a large firm started "from scratch" is going to be less feasible. And these things also take their time to happen, of course.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by chalupa-man on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:29PM (#21974195)
The moment you started to see any real success with a company like this and become significant competition, John Deere would reverse their equipment-as-a-service DRM-based model, and you would be instantly crushed by their far more familiar and established brand with all the accumulated knowledge and trust people already have. It's so certain that you have essentially no chance of long-term success. John Deere can operate like this because there's no competition, but the second there is competition than can revert to how they were and you are dead, so there's no point even trying.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by solatic on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @12:24AM (#21977164)
Brand isn't everything, it doesn't "crush" competitors in markets without winner-takes-all characteristics (i.e. network effects). People buy smartphones that aren't iPhones; people buy burgers not made by McDonald's; people rent hotel rooms not offered by Hilton or Marriott. By the time the upstarts get competitive enough to force the incumbent to act, the upstarts already have branding and market power of their own, and are not so easily crushed.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by syshum on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @03:14PM (#21995267)
I think you discounting the brand way to much.

Hotels, Food, etc are very much Brand focused, and absolutely people have their preferred brand of Hotel and Fast Food (and despise other brands)

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by catalogia on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:54PM (#21973193)
Manufacturing industrial equipment is a far cry from your typical ycombinator style mobile-app startup.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by VRay on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:14PM (#21973387)
Imagine, they could be the next WeWork!
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by okareaman on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:02PM (#21972645)
I like to do road trips as a hobby and I see a lot of Japanese and other Asian brand tractors in American farming areas,so there is competition
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Vesuvium on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:19PM (#21972823)
Is that really a problem in the country of the Silicon Valley? Actually, that might be the only thing preventing this from happening.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by xnyan on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:49PM (#21972499)
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by f311a on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:26PM (#21972913)
They are pretty good for their price. The factory is still producing some models that were first designed in the 1970-1980s.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jotm on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:06PM (#21972685)
I think parts availability might be a problem with those, as well as a general lack of knowledge about them. Otherwise, yeah MTZs are simple and easy to fix.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by bsder on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:48PM (#21972479)
Because manufacturing isn't software.

It takes a LOT of capital to build a company capable of manufacturing something like a tractor. And nobody will buy it initially because it has an unknown reliability record.

Look at the article, the farmers all make predictions about exactly how long those John-Deere tractors will last because they have roughly 40 years of experience working with them.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by floren on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:11PM (#21972734)
Mahindra is selling small and medium tractors in the US now; I don't know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if they were much more user-serviceable than the American brands people are complaining about.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by kasey_junk on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:15PM (#21972772)
Note: This story is about heavy duty tractors. Lighter duty tractors are much more competitive marketplace.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by floren on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:36PM (#21973016)
Yeah, Mahindra has some reasonably large tractors on their website, but the really Big Tractors you'll find from say John Deere aren't available. According to Wikipedia they're the largest tractor seller in the world, so maybe they'll expand!
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by appleshore on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:43PM (#21972417)
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by PerryCox on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:42PM (#21972409)
Because the bigger companies forced them out of business or acquired them.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by wvenable on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:51PM (#21972518)
Why was this downvoted? I just made the same comment before noticing this one already done. Competition is what solves these kind of things.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by skywhopper on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:01PM (#21972638)
Sure, but how do you propose to introduce competition into this market?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by bjt on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:38PM (#21976601)
There are nearly three dozen tractor manufacturers in listed on this page: https://www.ranker.com/list/best-tractor-brands/werner-brand....

Deere doesn't have a monopoly. But they do have an incredibly strong brand.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by mratsim on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:25PM (#21972904)
I guess, convincing Elon Musk that we need tractors on Mars could stimulate some competition.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by rootusrootus on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:14PM (#21972760)
Declare John Deere a monopoly and break them up?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by wvenable on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:46PM (#21973109)
Well the market has already been identified.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Yizahi on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:13PM (#21972745)
It will trickle down of course. /s
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by CharlesColeman on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:54PM (#21972552)
> If customers don’t want this stuff, why isn’t there a competing company offering non-DRM tractors?

Because modern capitalism is not a system that will magically fulfill customer needs, despite propaganda to the contrary. The way the system actually works is that the wants/needs of the capital-holders take priority over the wants/needs of other stakeholders (e.g. customers and workers). The other stakeholders are often forced to accept minimally acceptable deals, as long as the capital-holders are able to maintain barriers to entry (like large investments in capital).

A new market entrant will likely be tempted (eventually, if not immediately) to implement DRM just like Deere has. And Deere can always drop DRM temporarily if it will let them fend off a competitive threat.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jay_kyburz on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:47PM (#21973742)
I wonder how many presales a company would need to collect to make it worthwhile spinning up a tractor manufacturing plant.

Deere would need to decide whether to drop DRM to prevent your presale campaign.

If they do the consumer wins, and the new company can refund the presales and walk away.

If they don't you get your tractor manufacturing setup build and are then in the game.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:32PM (#21972970)
> The way the system actually works is that the wants/needs of the capital-holders take priority over the wants/needs of other stakeholders (e.g. customers and workers).

The capital-holders did not (in most cases) get a "you are now free to hose your customers" card. The cases where they are free to do so are cases where there is a lack of competition. So "modern capitalism is not a system that will magically fulfill customer needs in the absence of competition". But if there is actual competition, and the wants of the capital-holders take priority over the wants of the customers, that's not going to work out well for the capital-holders.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by CharlesColeman on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:47PM (#21973121)
> So "modern capitalism is not a system that will magically fulfill customer needs in the absence of competition".

But modern capitalism, at least in the American context, is a system being drained of competition. Competitors conspire to destroy it by merging and acquiring each other, and the deregulatory economic zeitgeist that's been in force for 40 years means the government has done little to foster it.

Markets tend towards equilibrium, and bitter competition is a kind of disequilibrium.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:35PM (#21973604)
> But modern capitalism, at least in the American context, is a system being drained of competition.

I agree, and I agree that it's a problem. But it's the "being drained of competition" that's the problem, not capitalism itself. (Well, capitalism itself is something that would prefer to drain itself of competition - even Adam Smith knew that - but for capitalism to work properly, there has to be competition.)

There seem to be two kinds of "draining of competition". First, there's the "just too good" kind. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and (the subject at hand) John Deere may all be of this kind (though Microsoft did plenty of dirty tricks to get there). Economics of scale and network effects create positive feedback loops where one competitor can win it all. I don't really know what to do about that.

The second kind is government-caused (or at least -allowed) monopoly. There's only one electric company here, because the government thought it made sense for there to be. Some other monopolies are less directly government caused, but heavy regulations can make it so that only the largest firms have the resources to comply, and all the smaller firms die.

Government-allowed is when the government approves a merger of firms that are big enough that the merger significantly decreases (or eliminates) competition.

With the government we've had for the last 40 years, I don't know what to do about this kind, either.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by skywhopper on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:59PM (#21972609)
Because it would be really expensive to start a new tractor manufacturing business; it would take years to even get prototypes up and running; you'd still have to prove that your tractors were as good as or better than these 40 year old antiques (which they probably wouldn't be at first); you'd have to be able to make something that could meet safety and efficiency standards of today while giving up the advantages of tight control over maintenance; you'd have to figure out how to compete with the dealer, mechanic, and parts networks that represent a huge advantage of the existing players; and you'd have to figure out how to do all of that without running out of money. It's probably a twenty-year project. You up for it?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jay_kyburz on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:48PM (#21973758)
Could you not simply copy the 40 year old tractors almost exactly. Any patents should be expired.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by andybalholm on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:09PM (#21974014)
Nope. If you did, I'm pretty sure the EPA would shut you down. Emissions regulations aren't quite as strict for tractors as for cars and trucks, but they are headed in the same direction. I don't think it's possible to meet emissions without computerized controls. And once you've put hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of electronics on the tractor, it's hard to resist the temptation to add DRM.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jay_kyburz on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:08PM (#21975637)
I know nothing about engines and found this article a good introduction about how computer controls help reduce emissions. https://www.pitchcare.com/news-media/diesel-engine-emissions...
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jdboyd on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:16PM (#21974077)
I think that you would have a hard time getting EPA approval if you starting making brand new copies of legacy engine designs. A new diesel tractor engine has to meet EPA Final Tier 4/ Stage IV standards. I don't know what would stand in the way of making a knock off of the 4440 chassis and transmission that uses a new Cummins or other crate engine though.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by catalogia on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:50PM (#21972510)
How many times must it be demonstrated that "market forces" is not a silver bullet to every problem before people take the hint?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by gitgudnubs on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:33PM (#21973586)
This problem was created by regulation. It's not clear that markets can work when governments grant monopolies, and don't restrict the ensuing vertical integration. The only solution is to grant weaker monopolies.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by dsr_ on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:01PM (#21972632)
Market forces would work in this situation, if only the situation were different:

- if there were an existing competitive market, that would help.

- if there were a clear long-term market, that might inspire competition.

But in this case, market forces caused the problem.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by catalogia on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:01PM (#21972642)
> X could solve Y if only Y were Z

That's a nice hypothetical, but hardly helps these farmers. The real solution is America's most hated four letter word: regulation.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by deith on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:21PM (#21972846)
>Market forces would work in this situation, if only the situation were different

That can be said every time the market fails to adjust itself.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by wetpaws on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:42PM (#21972413)
Because there is no competition in the US.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by cpach on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:01PM (#21972636)
Does farmers in other countries somehow enjoy a plethora of tractor manufacturers to choose from?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by davchana on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:13PM (#21972746)
Punjab state of India is pretty much Agriculture based, & have options of Ford, FarmTrac tractors as well as John Deere, Scot, this year models as well as from 1970s; along with local Indian Brands like Sonalika, Preet, Mahindra being equally good or better.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by mythrwy on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:32PM (#21974769)
Mahindra tractors are based on the old International Harvester models I think. They sell them in the US also.

They look pretty cool, simple and repairable, but I don't know if they make ones the size of commercial John Deere tractors. All the Mahnindra tractors I've looked at were small.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by davchana on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:17PM (#21976481)
No,not as big. All the ones I have seen in Punjab are way smaller, almost the size of an F-150 pickup truck.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by lb1lf on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:41PM (#21973055)
Living in a rural, Norwegian area, I can remember seeing the following brands of tractors recently - Fiat, Zetor, Case, John Deere, New Holland and Massey Ferguson. I've probably not paid attention to at least a couple more - I am not a tractor aficionado...
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by throwaway744678 on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:30PM (#21972957)
In Europe, Claas, New Holland Come to mind immediately. But there are definitely others.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:22PM (#21972864)
There's already competition.

Kubota

JCB

Kioti (I used to build these w/ my grand parents)