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Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by shpx on Saturday December 28, 2019 @11:48AM (#21899901)
Which dumb 4K TV(s) should I buy?
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by rsync on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:53PM (#21900397)
"Which dumb 4K TV(s) should I buy?"

That's a really good question, as it is qualified by the '4k' requirement ...

It's very easy and relatively inexpensive to buy a 1920x10280 commercial display unit, such as the NEC p461, which you have probably seen 10k times in airports.

However, there is not much demand for 4k panels for videowalls since ... the videowall grows to larger than 4k resolution anyway just by virtue of being a wall of panels.

So, at this time, in 2019, it is difficult and very expensive to buy a commercial display panel (that is what you would search for) that is 4k.

If I had to find one I think I would probably get that Dell 43 Ultra HD 4K Multi Client Monitor (P4317Q) with the caveat that it is "only" 43 inches in size.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by electrograv on Saturday December 28, 2019 @01:11PM (#21900541)
Unfortunately, the image quality of computer monitors pale in comparison to modern TVs. I recently switched from a Dell P4317Q to an old Samsung Q7 for my gaming monitor, and the quality (contrast, colors) improvement is profound, even without any HDR content. When we’re talking about HDR, they’re not even on the same playing field.

And that’s an old Samsung TV. On top of that, Samsung’s current flagships are among the worst TVs right now vs the competing major brands’ flagships (because all the best are now OLED, and Samsung is the only hold-out).

Even the improvement from a Samsung Q90 (which I had for a few weeks) to LG C9 OLED has to be seem to be believed. On some content, the improvement is drastic.

The technological progress of modern OLED TVs vs LED LCD is practically magical, when viewing good HDR content. If you go for an old panel for the sake of privacy, you’re either going to be sorely disappointed or blissfully ignorant of what your missing.

I would much rather buy a modern model and figure out how to disable the radios, if I was this worried about privacy.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by criley2 on Saturday December 28, 2019 @02:57PM (#21901327)
I would lean the opposite direction. I switched from a Vizio TV to a 144hz ViewSonic monitor and the difference in gaming is night and day. It's not only a better image with better colors, deeper blacks, better looking sharpness and stronger brightness where it counts, but the ability to render up to 144hz is a gamechanger.

I never realized that 1080p60 would look better on a 144hz monitor than a television but everything is so crisp and smooth in games, it's honestly breathtaking with the right scene. I didn't realize that having a panel that can handle 144hz means that vertical sync is pointless, and for the games that I can actually render at 144hz, the effect is magical by comparison.

I find myself replaying more cinematic games (like say Witcher 3) on the new panel and it's like experiencing the magic of these scenes all over again for the first time.

I couldn't ever imagine going back to a television for gaming.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by electrograv on Sunday December 29, 2019 @03:21AM (#21904785)
Sure, a bottom of the barrel TV vs a highly rated PC monitor is going to have a different outcome - no surprise, since that’s not a fair comparison.

Compare high end models in similar price ranges (as I have) and you’ll see what I’m talking about. For example: Compare an LG OLED in a dark room to any modern PC monitor, and I would be surprised if you were anything but blown away by the OLED, and appalled by how expensive these gaming monitors are compared to what a similarly priced OLED is capable of (especially now that LG OLEDs are capable of 120hz and variable refresh rate with input lag lower than many gaming monitors).

Of course, the main reason we don’t see everyone using OLED PC monitors are concerns about burn in effects from long term use. But for most people for TV and movie viewing, it’s not a concern. My 3 year old LG B6 OLED is still going strong with no signs of burn in, and has picture quality that still puts the best of the best non-OLED TVs to shame.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by tomc1985 on Saturday December 28, 2019 @11:59PM (#21904058)
My experience with PC displays is almost the complete opposite... its the computer display that has the most accurate colors -- all the TVs I've played with ride the contrast waaay too hard, and if all the extra processing isn't disabled the picture looks worse
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by electrograv on Sunday December 29, 2019 @03:35AM (#21904838)
By any chance is your experience with TVs from Samsung, or bargain brands? Among the top tier brands (LG, Sony, Panasonic, Samsung) only Samsung is notorious for intentionally bad out of box calibration (because oversaturated colors is a cheap a easy way to impress, though in extended use you will tire of it quickly). I don’t know about the bargain brands like Vizio but I heard their latest stuff is pretty capable, though I don’t know if they have good calibration by default like the above mentioned brands do (minus Samsung).

Color calibration isn’t everything BTW. The contrast ratio modern TVs are capable is pretty much unrivaled by any modern computer monitor until relatively recently, and even now the only ones that come close cost many times the price of an equivalent TV.

But no monitor on the market can hold a candle to the image quality experience of an OLED TV for HDR movies and TV shows. This is not really under any dispute btw among audio video forums: virtually everyone admits that emissive technology like OLED has inherent quality advantages. The main debate centers purely around whether or not OLED burn in is likely to occur for various use cases.

If you haven’t experienced modern HDR content on a flagship TV (particularly OLED), you are missing out on something really special. No current PC monitor can even come close, except those that cost >2x the price of a modern 55” OLED TV.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by tomc1985 on Sunday December 29, 2019 @03:54AM (#21904905)
Color accuracy is more important for me, I guess, and I have 99% sRGB coverage desktop LCDs to prove it. As for TVs I had a mid-tier 2013-ish Vizio 42" and a newer mid-tier 2017-ish Samsung 60" and both of them required a lot of tuning to get the color right. The Samsung does HDR and it does look nice, but again my priorities are color accuracy, low latency, and good contrast ratio (I do a lot of photo editing) and don't watch many movies or much TV.

I'm curious as to how a 10-bit display measures up, isn't HDR just a fancy standard for high-bit-rate color? Other than the backlight I imagine they'd still be superior.

I'd still prefer a giant computer display over a TV, if anything to avoid the various "smart" features and other value-adds, but to each their own I guess. I'll check out OLED TVs when I can but the demo reels they play are almost always blown-out contrast-wise and I can't stand images that feel like the saturation is set to max.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by electrograv on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:35AM (#21905040)
Yeah it’s hard to know how amazing modern OLEDs are from Best Buy demo reels, sadly. It’s something you have to experience in a dark room at home with good content to appreciate to the fullest.

BTW I highly recommend you do some research into HDR, and color gamut. I don’t think you know just how much you’re missing in terms of HDR, color gamut, contrast ratio, etc, that comes with modern TVs. Color gamut goes way beyond sRGB. Modern HDR TVs are far, far more than just “10 bit color”, and allow an express-able color gamut and color volume far beyond sRGB. A LG C9 achieves sound 99% DCIP3 color gamut and 75% REC2020.

To make a crude example, it’s kind of like 150% sRGB coverage, over a range from perfect black to extremely bright for each pixel individually, with enough precision for smooth gradients across these colors. These TVs can display colors that your sRGB monitor is physically incapable of reproducing, and they can display pixel by pixel contrast radios that allow realistic details and specular highlight brightness levels that cannot be done on regular LCD monitors or TVs. And it all absolutely shows in the picture quality when viewing recent movies/TV that are mastered well.

P.S. Stay away from Samsung if you care about color accuracy as I do. Sony and LG and Panasonic all have excellent color accuracy, and likely will be better than any PC monitor within twice it’s price. But Samsung not only comes out of box with horrible defaults, but actually CANNOT be correctly calibrated due to always-on tone mapping. Among videophiles, it’s well known that Samsung is not the way to go. But please don’t let Samsung’s overly flashy demos turn you off to the amazing technical abilities of modern TVs in general. Just because Samsung made arguably greedy marketing-driven design choices that cheapen and destroy the artistic accuracy of the content does not mean everyone else does too. Only Samsung does this as far as I’m aware, among the top brands.

If you want color accuracy, picture quality perfection, superior color gamut, contrast, HDR, AND low latency (0.1ms response time and overall input lag on par with dedicated gaming monitors), LG OLED is THE way to go.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by jordanbeiber on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:31PM (#21900233)
I’ll go for this one when my plasma dies:

https://ironcast.tv/

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by bonestamp2 on Saturday December 28, 2019 @02:45PM (#21901223)
If your plasma dies, and it's not a problem with the panel itself, open the back and look at the various boards. Most flat panel TVs have 2-4 circuit boards in the back that are relatively easy to access and replace.

I had a top end 4K TV die last year just after the warranty ran out. It was going to be almost $100 to have the company repair guy look at it, then parts and potentially additional labor to fix it. I opened the back, did a bit of research and made an educated guess about which board was the problem (which was pretty easy based on the symptoms) and it turned out to be a $130 part that I found on ebay for $25 and I swapped it out within a few minutes.

It turns out there are half a dozen companies that strip down broken TVs and sell off the boards that are still good. That board had actually been through a few revisions since the original one I had, so now it runs even better than new. hehe

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by xingped on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:36PM (#21900267)
I don't understand what this brand is trying to sell?
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by Nextgrid on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:38PM (#21900283)
A TV whose "dumbness" is a selling point and not a drawback. Basically a monitor in a TV form-factor with a reasonably price (it's actually pretty cheap for its size and feature set) - at the moment the only other alternative to this is a commercial display which are priced at several thousands for this size, and even then I'm not sure any of them would offer 4k and HDR (since it's not really relevant for outdoor digital signage applications).
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by jordanbeiber on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:53PM (#21900396)
I submitted this as a link a few weeks back, and since then ironcast have basically added/updated every point of concern fellow HN posters had:

- HDR

- analog volume “puck”

- more hdmi connections

Also - source code is at least claimed to be open.

Nothing really like this on the European market to be found.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by Nextgrid on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:54PM (#21900406)
I really hope they deliver. I'm definitely getting one when I'm in the market for a TV.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by rchaud on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:29PM (#21900213)
Shouldn't your question be 'which 4K TVs are still dumb'? I cannot find a single TV at Best Buy that isn't a Smart TV.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by rmolin88 on Saturday December 28, 2019 @11:58AM (#21899979)
Buy any 4K that fits your budget. Just don't connect it to your WiFi.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by zingermc on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:12PM (#21900083)
This assumes a certain (low) level of malicious intent. A fully malicious TV will connect to open WiFi nearby or use even more exotic methods to exfiltrate data.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by gruez on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:30PM (#21900215)
>A fully malicious TV will connect to open WiFi nearby

Connect to your own wifi and block any traffic?

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by Nextgrid on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:41PM (#21900306)
If you've got logic to connect to nearby open Wi-Fi, why wouldn't you also use it as a fallback if the primary Wi-Fi is down?

Even if they don't do this yet it's only a matter of time before the manufacturers catch on and start doing so.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by gruez on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:54PM (#21900405)
In that case, the only hope you have is play the cat and mouse game and hope they give up before you do. Realistically though, they probably won't bother escalate past this point because the people who would go to such lengths are a tiny minority, and going after them don't make business sense.

>If you've got logic to connect to nearby open Wi-Fi, why wouldn't you also use it as a fallback if the primary Wi-Fi is down?

One idea to counter this would be to use something like this[1] to deauth the TV instantly, or spam a bunch of open networks so it gets stuck trying to connect to those rather than actually working ones.

[1] https://github.com/spacehuhn/esp8266_deauther

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by Nextgrid on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:56PM (#21900422)
The problem is that putting up with this doesn't actually send a message to the manufacturer that this is not OK, so they'll just keep doing this and perfecting their malware-like techniques until it's completely unblockable without some military-grade signal jamming equipment.

Even if it can be blocked, I don't recommend anyone buy these and look for alternatives (commercial displays, old second-hand ones, https://ironcast.tv, etc)

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by zingermc on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:40PM (#21900299)
You're still assuming it won't detect this and periodically phone home from an open network.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by OrgNet on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:22PM (#21900149)
It might be better to buy a dumb computer monitor
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by zzo38computer on Saturday December 28, 2019 @01:09PM (#21900525)
Yes, I know someone who did that, although for a different reason (to reduce lag).
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by m-p-3 on Saturday December 28, 2019 @01:05PM (#21900500)
They don't have those in 70" sadly.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by gl00pp on Saturday December 28, 2019 @06:40PM (#21902636)
Want to vouch for the projector route if you aren't a total definitionphile.

I have a $80 one off Amazon with 4000 4.5 star reviews. Gives about a 8'x6' pic on my bedroom wall. Has all the inputs.

Eighty dollars!

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by pedrocr on Saturday December 28, 2019 @03:10PM (#21901422)
Getting a projector is a good option these days. They're cheap and can give you a home theater experience with easily twice that size. Just measured my setup and it ends up at ~130" diagonally.

There are limitations in the room you can use (not too bright, big white wall, good place to place the projector). But if you can manage it I strongly suggest it.

Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by viraptor on Saturday December 28, 2019 @01:11PM (#21900538)
Someone here mentioned recently that there are many dumb TVs sold as business/commercial displays. Haven't got one, but maybe that's something you can look into.
Re:Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content ... by alkonaut on Saturday December 28, 2019 @12:26PM (#21900180)
Don’t. Good panels and quick onboard logic correlates strongly to being a “smart TV”. It’s better to buy a smart one and just not connect it.