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Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by minikites on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:55PM (#21810362)
>gun rights derive from the Constitution

Many people conveniently leave out the "well regulated militia" part of the second amendment.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by robcohen on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:02PM (#21810417)
This is a horse that has been beaten to death. It’s well established what militia means.

Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.[1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by brewdad on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:14PM (#21810492)
So we should be confiscating guns on one's 45th birthday? Probably not all that effective, but it's a start I guess.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by robcohen on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:32PM (#21810596)
Alternatively, you can just repeal the second amendment. I’m unsure why anti-gun advocates don’t just argue this. The constitution can be changed. Justice Stevens argued this in an op-ed: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opin...
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by melling on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:43PM (#21810667)
“In 1939 the Supreme Court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun because that weapon had no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia.”

During the years when Warren Burger was our chief justice, from 1969 to 1986, no judge, federal or state, as far as I am aware, expressed any doubt as to the limited coverage of that amendment. When organizations like the National Rifle Association disagreed with that position and began their campaign claiming that federal regulation of firearms curtailed Second Amendment rights, Chief Justice Burger publicly characterized the N.R.A. as perpetrating “one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by rayiner on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:24AM (#21810899)
Blaming the NRA is popular, but people leave out that the academic tide turned against the 1960s view as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html

> There used to be an almost complete scholarly and judicial consensus that the Second Amendment protects only a collective right of the states to maintain militias. That consensus no longer exists — thanks largely to the work over the last 20 years of several leading liberal law professors, who have come to embrace the view that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own guns. See also: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/common.htm.

If you look at what the Framers contemporaneously wrote about guns and the militia, it’s almost impossible to deny that the purpose of the second amendment is to ensure that able-bodied men would have access to fire arms in order to form militias, to not only combat foreign enemies but potentially domestic ones. Any sort of gun control that undermines that purpose cannot be squared with the second amendment, and we are slowly but surely rediscovering that understanding.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by melling on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:28AM (#21810915)
There’s more in the Atlantic version of the article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/john-paul-...

“ Colonial history contains many examples of firearm regulations in urban areas that imposed obstacles to their use for protection of the home. Boston, Philadelphia, and New York—the three largest cities in America at that time—all imposed restrictions on the firing of guns in the city limits. Boston enacted a law in 1746 prohibiting the “discharge” of any gun or pistol that was later revived in 1778; ”

“ Boston’s gunpowder law imposed a 10-pound fine on any person who took any loaded firearm into any dwelling house or barn within the town. Most, if not all, of those regulations would violate the Second Amendment as it was construed in the 5–4 decision that Justice Antonin Scalia ”

During colonial times we did not have a large standing army and relied on state militias.

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-congress-off...

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Turing_Machine on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:20AM (#21811154)
> Colonial history contains many examples of firearm regulations in urban areas that imposed obstacles to their use for protection of the home.

None of the Bill of Rights applied to the states until the ratification of the 14th Amendment in 1868, after which it was held to be "incorporated to the states". State and local laws from the colonial period are not relevant.

During the same period, several states had established churches, but I see no one arguing that the First Amendment still permits that.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by melling on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:30AM (#21811200)
It’s surprising that Justice Stevens didn’t understand that when he wrote it in May of this year.

Is it possible that he did and you’re missing something?

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Turing_Machine on Wednesday December 25, 2019 @04:02PM (#21880445)
Justice Stevens is the outlier here. The majority of the court agrees with me, not him.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Jamwinner on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:40AM (#21811803)
We still have laws against firing guns in the city. Posessing is a different manner.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by glenstein on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:39AM (#21810972)
Gun advocates should clear up confusion by lobbying for an amendment that redefines militia to encompass a wider age range.

Or we can acknowledge that passing constitutional amendments in the 21st century requires amount of political capital that it is no longer possible to attain in our system. Insisting that we interpret the status quo as favoring one's preferred ideology, and that one's ideological opponents must seek reform through an for-all-practical-purposes impossible mechanism is just a different way of expressing routine ideological preferences.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by rayiner on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:19AM (#21812754)
Your second point is backward. The Constitution is a compromise between various ideological preferences. If it’s impossible to achieve sufficient consensus to change the bargain by amending the Constitution, that means you can’t change the bargain. You can’t subvert the requirement of a strong consensus for amendment by way of mechanisms (legislation, judicial interpretation) that require lower levels of consensus.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by glenstein on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @06:42PM (#21820278)
That artificially constrains the entirety of gun control to the question of constitutional amendments, and confusedly insists that other constitutionally valid reforms (e.g. congressional and state legislation, court rulings) would be 'subverting' that process. Which is deeply confused for reasons I certainly hope I don't have to explain out loud in a serious conversation.

Congress has drifted from the institutional norm of resorting to constitutional amendments for reasons that have nothing to do with the merits of gun control. Insisting that an extremely difficult channel for reform is the only valid way to seek reform begs the question in favor of a deeply disputed interpretation of the second amendment, and disingenuously insists that other channels of reform aren't on the table, for reasons that have yet to be explained.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by ryeights on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:17AM (#21811401)
>Or we can acknowledge that passing constitutional amendments in the 21st century requires amount of political capital that it is no longer possible to attain in our system.

Why is this? What, concretely, has changed? Note that Constitutional amendments are supposed to be difficult to pass.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by jki275 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:01AM (#21810771)
you should definitely try that.

For the record, it's impossible under our current system and political reality. The process to repeal an amendment requires more than three population centers on the east and west coast, and the rest of the country isn't going to roll over for you.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by pnako on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:41PM (#21810645)
You can certainly try to do that.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Pinckney on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:56PM (#21810738)
You quote the militia act, but congress doesn't get to define the words of the constitution through ordinary legislation. If it worked that way then they could just as easily pass a law defining "arms" as only muskets, "speech" as only spoken words, and "unreasonable search" as only a search conducted without reasonable suspicion.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by felipelemos on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:23PM (#21810556)
Should "Unorganized" militia counted as "regulated" militia?
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by jakeogh on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:42AM (#21810987)
Please take a moment to listen to the 2008 Heller vs DC decision: https://s3.amazonaws.com/oyez.case-media.ogg/case_data/2007/...

You might change your mind.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by minikites on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:20AM (#21812760)
>Pulitzer Prize-winning American historian Joseph Ellis criticized Scalia's Heller decision as political agenda disguised as originalist principles: "If Heller reads like a prolonged exercise in legalistic legerdemain, ... that is because Scalia's preordained outcome forced him to perform three challenging tasks: to show that the words of the Second Amendment do not mean what they say; to ignore the historical conditions his originalist doctrine purportedly required him to emphasize; and to obscure the radical implications of rejecting completely the accumulated wisdom of his predecessors on the court."
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by jakeogh on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:01PM (#21817308)
A void criticism. Translates to nothing of substance. Interesting in the context of that recording; Ellis (a proven liar who claimed to have been a platoon leader in Vietnam) really has nothing to say.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by jdkee on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:15AM (#21810842)
No. “Well regulated” in the context of the 2A means in good working condition. The militia, which is every male between the ages of 18 and 45, shoukd have a working weapon. Legal “regulations” has nothing to do with it.
[dead]
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by ryeights on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:19AM (#21811409)
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by anigbrowl on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:56PM (#21819873)
That's not at all what the GP was saying.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by ryeights on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:56AM (#21825422)
>Finally, the adjective “well-regulated” implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training.

It's pretty close...

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by enraged_camel on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:20AM (#21810878)
>>“Well regulated” in the context of the 2A means in good working condition.

This is the first time I'm hearing of this "good working condition" definition.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by finnthehuman on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:43AM (#21812910)
Definitions and case law surrounding 200 year old text aren't immediately intuitive from the layman's reading.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by googlesux on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:59PM (#21810391)
Maybe you don't understand what a prefatory clause is? But it's a good talking point.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by sigzero on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:59PM (#21810394)
Meaning what? The SCOTUS has ruled several times that the individual right to bear arms is separate from the "militia" statement and both are covered in the 2A.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Ididntdothis on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:41PM (#21810644)
Why is the phrase "well-regulated militia" in there then? Is it just fluff that can be ignored?
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by rayiner on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:28AM (#21810921)
Eugene Volokh has done a pretty thorough study of this: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/common.htm

> The Second Amendment is widely seen as quite unusual, because it has a justification clause as well as an operative clause. Professor Volokh points out that this structure was actually quite commonplace in American constitutions of the Framing era: State Bills of Rights contained justification clauses for many of the rights they secured. Looking at these state provisions, he suggests, can shed light on how the similarly structured Second Amendment should be interpreted. In particular, the provisions show that constitutional rights will often -- and for good reason -- be written in ways that are to some extent overinclusive and to some extent underinclusive with respect to their stated justifications.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by ryeights on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:56PM (#21810739)
Well, you can read the Supreme Court opinion to find out exactly why: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/#tab-opi...

In short, the clause is there as a justification/motivation, and not a precondition, for the right to bear arms.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Turing_Machine on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:07AM (#21811097)
ryeights gave a cite below, but consider this:

If the First Amendment had been written as "A well-educated legislature being essential to the governance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed", you would argue, what, exactly?

That only the legislature had the right to books?

That only "well-educated" people had the right to books?

No, you wouldn't. Neither would anyone else, because that would be a tortured interpretation of the language.

Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by yongjik on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:18AM (#21811146)
This is a really weird argument, considering that the First Amendment is emphatically not written as such, and that's what this debate is about: maybe there's a reason why such a phrase appears in 2A but not in 1A, or maybe there's none, but you're begging the question.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Ididntdothis on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:21AM (#21811161)
If the first amendment was written that way I think we shouldn't just ignore the phrase "well-educated". Otherwise you can choose to ignore other sections too. Either all words have meaning or they don't. You can't pick and choose.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Pinckney on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:03AM (#21810786)
Is pornography uncopyrightable because it's not a "science or useful art"? (I.8.8)
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by jdkee on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:18AM (#21810863)
No. You are confusing patent law with copyright law. And first amendment law with copyright.
Re:United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year... by Ididntdothis on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:05AM (#21810794)
I don't think that compares.