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Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by ksec on Monday December 16, 2019 @05:22PM (#21808037)
Arh, is this why why people in US hate public transport and prefer to drive themselves or go by taxi?

For those of us living in the "outside" world where public transport are the norm, it is sometimes hard to understand why public transport is treated so differently in US.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by cameldrv on Monday December 16, 2019 @07:32PM (#21809237)
The reasons are:

1. Public transit is very slow relative to cars. This is because the U.S. was mostly built after the invention of the car, which means road capacity is higher, parking is easier, and distances are farther. Even in places with decent public transit, it takes 2-3x as long to get somewhere on public transit as driving a car.

2. The U.S. is a rich country and more people can afford their own car or to take a taxi/rideshare.

3. Public transit is less comfortable and convenient. It involves walking and waiting outside, possibly in bad weather, and possibly crowding. If you are carrying things with you or bringing small children, the hassle is magnified trying to maneuver through small spaces with large items quickly.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by IAmEveryone on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:57PM (#21810748)
At least in cities and during the day, good public transport is faster than cars at any distance. In London or Paris (and even New York), you'll see hedge fund managers on the subway.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by cameldrv on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:58PM (#21819887)
London and Paris don't have motorways that go into the city center like most U.S. cities do.

Even so, even in say, Paris inside the ring, it's typically faster to take a taxi than the Metro. Go on Google maps and pick some random routes and see for yourself.

As soon as you go to a smaller city or travel outside the densest part of the city, the car becomes dramatically faster.

My observation is that hedge fund managers do not typically take the subway. They have chauffeured cars so that they can make productive use of their time while driving. In the rare instance that transit is faster, being able to simply sit down and take calls, do email, etc is very valuable and is not practical on most forms of transit. Certainly confidential calls are a no-go, and laptops are not practical except on some commuter rail. Furthermore, on most transit trips, the time is broken up. At minimum you have walking time, then waiting time, then moving time, then more walking time. With transfers it's broken up even more. You'd be lucky to have 1/3 of the time sitting in a seat where you could peck out emails on a smartphone.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by cpitman on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:06AM (#21810800)
That really depends on the city. In DC, my drive commute is ~10-20 minutes in the morning, and my train commute is ~40+ minutes. Why? Because I have to transfer once, and walk to and from the stations on either side.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by lexs on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:10AM (#21811936)
he said good public transport
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by baroffoos on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:08PM (#21810152)
>2. The U.S. is a rich country and more people can afford their own car or to take a taxi/rideshare.

Is this true? It was my understanding that a large % of Americans can't even afford to buy a car and have to take out a loan as well as cutting down on other living expenses to have enough money to drive to work.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by kube-system on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:40PM (#21810304)
The US is 4th for cars per capita. Behind San Marino, Monaco, and New Zealand.

Regardless of whether it’s “affordable” to own a car, people do it anyway.

Financing for vehicles in the US is very accessible. There are dealerships who advertise on the radio in my city that they cater to people with “multiple bankruptcies”, and “no drivers license”, with little to no money down.

As a more extreme anecdote:

I had a bad roommate in college who spent almost all of the money from his part time minimum wage job on alcohol. He routinely “bought” a car, didn’t make the payments, and when the tow truck showed up to repossess it, he just went out and “bought” another the next day.

His high-risk loans didn’t have great terms, but he always had a car.

Also, even with some of the lowest required insurance minimums in the developed world, the number of uninsured drivers in the US is huge. There are insurance companies that will give you insurance for a single day too... just long enough to register your car and get a license plate.

Used cars are super cheap in the US too, and in most places, inspection requirements are minimal. You can buy old and ugly but running vehicles for less than a yearly bus pass in many places.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by baroffoos on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:29AM (#21810924)
You comment just confirmed my thoughts that people in the US often can't afford a car and are forced to go through any insane measures possible to use one since it is a requirement for life in the US.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by kube-system on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:13AM (#21811123)
Of course, I am giving examples of extremes.

But in general, I’m just saying that cars have low barriers to obtain here, for whatever the situation may be. That situation is sometimes necessity, but not always. This is not a phenomenon that only exists in places without public transit.

I also wanted to convey is that the concept of “affordable” isn’t exactly comparable across cultures, classes, and backgrounds.

As you may know, cars are a status symbol in the US. My roommate in the example above absolutely considered himself able to afford a car. Even though we lived in a place with a viable bus route that would have taken him everywhere he needed to go, his car was an essential enough part of his identity, lifestyle, and status that he decided to prioritize it as he did.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by Gibbon1 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:34AM (#21810947)
You aren't mistaken.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by creato on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:43AM (#21811813)
Yes he is, and so are you. I just spent 2 minutes and found half a dozen vehicles under $1000 that will likely run well for years.

Public transit really isn't an option for most people in the US, and even if it is, unless a transit pass is subsidized, a car like that is probably more cost effective even including fuel, maintenance, and insurance, not to mention the savings in time and freedom provided by a car (any car).

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by Gibbon1 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:21PM (#21820553)
At some point you should maybe sit down and figure out how much your car is costing you each year. And get back to us.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by pkaye on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:56PM (#21808942)
For me its infrequent and unpredictable bus timings, limited bus stops, long travel times. If I took buses to work it would take 1-1.5 hours to reach my work. When I drive, it takes 30-45min. And the bus is available only once an hour during peak hours.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by crispyambulance on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:58PM (#21809759)
The unpredictable timing and long travel times occur as a unintended result of consolidating public transport options.

It starts when transportation planners get the "bright idea" to cancel lines that don't have some threshold of number of riders. On paper that looks good because it culls the lines that aren't as profitable, allowing the operating budget to shrink. In reality, it makes transit slightly less attractive, less flexible to riders, and it means that some places aren't reachable directly, conveniently or at all.

Decades of this kind of behavior coupled with increasing distaste for public expenditures and you're left with a transit system that only serves patrons whose time is worth almost nothing, who are desperate enough to burn 1-2 hours of travel to get to places that are reachable in 20 minutes by private vehicles.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by munificent on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:48PM (#21809706)
> it is sometimes hard to understand why public transport is treated so differently in US.

It is worth remembering that the US is much larger than all of Europe, is considerably less dense, and much of it was not well-developed until after automobiles were in wide use.

Public transit doesn't make logistical sense in much of the country. It does make sense in some places, of course, but it's less of a part of the national culture because there are so many areas where it's not a good idea.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by asdff on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:16PM (#21810506)
On the grand scale, sure. That's the conclusion you'd reach if you average all the empty land in the U.S. where absolutely no one lives. But just like europe there are dense places in the U.S.

Much of the U.S. and many suburbs were developed with streetcars in mind that were later removed in favor of private car ownership.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by lazyasciiart on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:39AM (#21812355)
That argument falls apart when you look at countries like Australia, China, Brazil - plenty of open space but cities have public transport because the nation culture isn't dead against it.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by munificent on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:05PM (#21816498)
I feel like none of the replies to my comment read my second sentence.

Yes, there are many cities in the US with enough density to support public transit. Most of them have it.

My point is that public transit is not a large part of American culture and history which significantly depresses demand for it.

Most Americans grew up in families that owned a car or two and used them to get everywhere. When you ask an American how to get groceries, their immediate mental image is getting in a car, taking a long drive to a big store, and filling up the car with a week or two's worth of stuff. Tell them they can't own a car and all of a sudden they don't know how to solve mundane problems like this anymore. There are other perfectly fine solutions, of course, but they don't know those solutions yet. It's not part of their culture.

Also, most Americans live or at least grew up in cities whose urban planning was designed around automobiles and parking lots. They are spread out to make room for parking lots, which in turn makes public transit slower and less economical. People need cars because cities are too spread out for transit because people prefer to drive because they have cars because cities are too spread out...

There is a huge path dependent effect here where most cities aren't laid out for public transit and most people don't prioritize it.

People from outside of the US love to criticize how stupid Americans are for not having great buses and rail everywhere, but few want to acknowledge that no country is free of its own history and culture. Cars are a big part of ours. We are making progress, but the physical topology of cities and the culture loaded into the heads of several hundred million people cannot be refactored as easily as code.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by adrianN on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:29AM (#21812038)
That argument gets repeated in every conversation about public transit in the US. The truth is that even in large dense cities public transport is abysmal compared to much smaller cities in Europe.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by 121789 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:07AM (#21812204)
I don't think you're really disagreeing with him. We all agree that transit stinks even in big metro areas (NY/Chicago are decent but still not to European level). The issue is that in those dense areas it's now extremely expensive to build, and in other areas, there isn't enough population to support large build outs (like in the southeast where I grew up). Compounding that is the fact that rail would have to compete with fairly cheap flights.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by adrianN on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:11AM (#21812223)
It's not that expensive if you're not afraid of taking away space from cars. Bus lanes and trams are relatively cheap to build.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by eliseumds on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:39PM (#21810299)
The US is a bit smaller than Europe, actually. 9.8mi sqkm vs 10.2mi sqkm. But yeah, less than half of the population density.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by ajdlinux on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:04PM (#21810431)
I'd suggest that "Europe" in this context is really referring to Western/Central Europe, which is the "Europe" that non-European Anglophones tend to think about.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by asveikau on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:33PM (#21808733)
> Arh, is this why why people in US hate public transport and prefer to drive themselves or go by taxi?

I am an American and I don't get it either. I think it varies by geography, where else you might have lived, etc. I grew up on the east coast and always hated taxis, and didn't like to drive.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by asdff on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:45PM (#21810679)
It all has to do with investment. LA has one of the largest metro systems and a million people use it a day. 60% of NYC commuters use public transport. In cities that build and improve transport, it gets used. It has nothing to do with culture but rather what is actually built.

It also doesn't help that transit agencies in smaller cities have been degenerate. Their answer for declines in ridership is to consolidate and cut service, not improve the network, which leads to more decline, and more consolidation, until you end up with a place like many commenters in this thread where 1 bus comes every hour, usually following the path of a former streetcar right of way that was ripped out by monied interests 70 years ago.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by heavyset_go on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:04PM (#21810432)
Look at the history of public transportation in the US. It is notoriously underfunded, and was intentionally starved in favor of pushing car ownership.
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Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by nostromo on Monday December 16, 2019 @05:29PM (#21808114)
Ridiculous.

Americans are practical like anyone else. Transit in the US tends to be (much) slower than driving, so people drive.

In the few places where transit actually works, like New York, Americans use it.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by briffle on Monday December 16, 2019 @05:52PM (#21808371)
My last town, the bus at busy times would literally stop on every major corner to let on or off one person. Plus, there was no actual place for the bus to pull out of traffic, so every block, it would stop in the right lane.

So the bus took at least 4 times longer to get to downtown, and caused TONS of frustration with other drivers, who were always frantic to get to the left lane to get around the bus. Tends to not leave a great impression on people. Now, if there was something like a BRT, with limited stops, out of traffic, with much faster loading, then that would probably really change its image in my town.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by baddox on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:55PM (#21808941)
I think it's more like "fuck sitting on the train for 40 minutes next to someone who is laying across a row of seats literally covered in their own waste." If you ever get onto a crowded BART and see a conspicuously unoccupied area, don't be tempted to venture near it.

It's certainly not a judgment of that person. It's just not how you want to spend your commute. Clearly that person is not healthy, and the entire situation is not healthy for anyone.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by Dumblydorr on Monday December 16, 2019 @05:31PM (#21808134)
I'm sorry, I have to push back here. Is it a "fuck poor people" mentality, as you state, to not want to be near people who smell of urine, excrement, BO, stale drug smells? This is simply the modern nose being accustomed to sanitary smells, can you really say it's a "fuck poor people mentality" if it's down to literally never smelling those smells except on public transport?
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by seanmcdirmid on Monday December 16, 2019 @05:37PM (#21808201)
There is some of that, but some of it is just snobbery...meaning kids are made fun of if they take the bus rather than driving in their own car or getting a ride from their parents. It starts from an early age, and isn’t entirely related to disgust.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by sutterbomb on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:00PM (#21808463)
These undesirable aspects are at least partially a result of the same fuck the poor mentality. In countries that actually care for their populations, homeless and otherwise, this problem is far less severe.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by buzzkillington on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:13PM (#21808583)
So fuck the middle class because the rich don't want to pay taxes?
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by shkkmo on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:37PM (#21808781)
There's a great deal of evidence that we actually save money by providing housing, shelters and other services to poor people. Unfortunately, the politics make this unpopular and dictate that when they are provided they come with strings attached that discourage their use. It really isn't a question of not wanting to pay taxes and much more question of demonizing poor people.

The money spent on policing, cleanup, and emergency medical care is often far more than we would spend if we would just fund helping lift people out of poverty without all the moralizing.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by wolco on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:54PM (#21808935)
The middle class makes up most of the tax payer population. You can't tax income at the top and expect much unless you added 20%.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by munk-a on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:22PM (#21809555)
Your statement isn't incorrect, but it has missed the point. Yea the middle class will always bear the majority of the tax burden in absolute terms, but that doesn't mean it's silly to tax the rich, the take home is pretty minor but they should always be paying more money in absolute individual terms than the middle class - right now they usually pay less, sometimes they pay nothing, sometimes they get a handout.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by azylman on Monday December 16, 2019 @07:24PM (#21809192)
Most of the tax payer population, but not most of the gains available for taxation. Small increases in taxes to the very wealthy would far outweigh large increases in taxes to the middle class in terms of government revenue.

On top of that, you say "unless you added 20%" as if that's something that's beyond the pale when in fact the wealthiest people pay far less in taxes that at any point in our country's history.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by thawaway1837 on Monday December 16, 2019 @07:19PM (#21809153)
The top 1% in the US has absorbed nearly the entire economic growth for the last 30 years or so.

The number of people doesn’t really matter. It’s the percentage of wealth that they hold that matters.

Other segments of the population have seen absolutely no economic growth.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by wolco on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:48PM (#21816267)
The top 1% isn't getting income via employment payroll.

They own entities globally and can afford to give themselves a dollar a year salary. If you are only raising employment income taxes you have to get it from the middle class.

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Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by gamblor956 on Monday December 16, 2019 @07:02PM (#21809002)
I'm reminded of the slums currently surrounding Paris which are almost as bad as LA's skid row, but less visible simply because they're further from the people in power.

Or what about Britain's history of horrific poverty that formed the basis for nearly all of Dickens' work. Germany's far more recent history, especially for those on the East side of the wall. Russia's treatment of its poor during and after Communism. The way that people just ignore the poor, and even dying around them in China, and India, without even taking a few seconds to call emergency services.

Which country has contributed personnel to every major UN mission? Which is the only country to have provided medical assistance, food, and logistics support after every major terrorist act or natural disaster through January 2017? Which country sends more volunteers around the world to house the poor, feed the hungry, and teach the children than nearly every other nation combined? (Hint: the answer to all of these is the US.)

But sure, only Americans only think of themselves...

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by selman89 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:36AM (#21813269)
I did not say only Americans do this. Nonetheless, I am not convinced the homeless issue in France competes with that of LA, Dickens wrote in the 19th century, and this is the 21st.

Which nation has military bases in every populated corner of the Earth? Soothing platitudes such as yours have always underwritten imperialism.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by jcranmer on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:53PM (#21808927)
In my entire life, I have never experienced those smells on public transit in a wide variety of cities. So if you're experiencing those smells a lot, that is a local issue with an oversized burden on public transit because, well, fuck the poor people who take transit.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by astrodust on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:28PM (#21808687)
That's because your transit system is taking up the slack in other parts of your municipal system that are failing, not because public transit is bad.

It's because "fuck poor people" is happening across a broad spectrum.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by patcon on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:42PM (#21808811)
This. imho transit ridership bears more of the burden of the "fuck poor people" undercurrent of America.

It's maybe the snowy after image of the American Dream: Anyone can make [if they work hard] / It must be their fault if they don't make it.

Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by astrodust on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:01PM (#21809435)
Even in its most dysfunctional state, like busses that are total shit and run once an hour on a drunkenly erratic schedule, it's still operational as compared to other things like homeless shelters, drug rehab centers, and mental health care which don't exist or are completely overwhelmed.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by munk-a on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:19PM (#21809535)
As much as rich people hate buses, they're a vital transportation resource to working folks - I take a bus and metro every day and save a bunch compared to owning and commuting in a car.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by astrodust on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:30PM (#21809600)
You don't take the bus because you like it, but because you have no other option.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by munk-a on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:41PM (#21809668)
Nope, I've got plenty of other options, I just choose to take the bus and support public transit. I do well for myself, not stupid SV levels of salary, but quite comfortable.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by jcranmer on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:37PM (#21809642)
There have been places where I could have commuted by car (i.e., I owned a car), but chose to commute by bus instead.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by vonmoltke on Monday December 16, 2019 @07:31PM (#21809229)
It is far from just poor people who make public transit unpleasant: https://twitter.com/hashtag/garbagepeopleofnjtransit
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by madengr on Monday December 16, 2019 @05:36PM (#21808187)
All you have to do is search “KC bus shooting” on YouTube.
Re:Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost ... by drdeadringer on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:06PM (#21808523)
Although you forgot to mention BART, do you believe such is common across US public transportation?