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Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by hugi on Sunday December 15, 2019 @03:36PM (#21798808)
I'm an outsider fan. I've attempted to use IntelliJ on multiple occasions, but it just can't really compete with Eclipse as far as my requirements are concerned. But the competition from and innovation in IntelliJ has no doubt made Eclipse better (and modern Eclipse is kind of awesome and just keeps getting better).
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by jillesvangurp on Monday December 16, 2019 @04:50AM (#21801956)
I switched from Eclipse to Intellij only three years ago because it actually used to be pretty good but just fell behind too much. Gradle & Spring Boot were the reason I gave up on Eclipse. I just couldn't get a project imported correctly without running into a lot of bugs. So, when a new project came up I just switched over and started using Intellij.

Before that, for doing vanilla maven + Java projects Eclipse was awesome and generally running circles around intellij in terms of performance, which is still something that is off by order of magnitudes in Intellij and something I miss a lot.

Intellij users are always surprised when I bring that up and say it is fine on their machine. And then I point out that 5-20 seconds to run a unit test after a 1 letter code change is obscenely slow compared to Eclipse because it finishes incremental compilation a few ms after you lift your finger and is ready to run your test. Intellij attempted to integrate the Eclipse incremental compiler but it is not used by default and generally not that well integrated. Their compilation strategy depends on a lot of caching, which is hard and frequently gets in an inconsistent state (i.e. your IDE lies to you about things compiling or not compiling), which is why people routinely rebuild their whole project, or worse invalidate caches and restart (a top level menu option because it needs to be).

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by aedron on Monday December 16, 2019 @06:21AM (#21802289)
There are, despite the often very aggressive IntelliJ proponents, many areas where Eclipse beats IntelliJ, and incremental compilation is indeed one of the most important. It is also possibly the most important feature in a Java IDE. Ctrl+s and you know the whole codebase is compiled. Go to another file and any code change is available in the code completion (like new or changed methods signatures). Any errors from the change you just saved is shown immediately from across the entire codebase.

I just can't live without a core thing like this missing, and compounded with a number of other things that Eclipse does better, I stay on Eclipse. Unfortunately many younger developers think IntelliJ is all there is.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by dathanb82 on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:28PM (#21806211)
When's the last time you checked out IntelliJ? It does incremental compilation these days, plus auto-save-and-compile whenever you switch tabs (not just when you save the current tab, which bit me many times in Eclipse; though I haven't used Eclipse in at least four years now), so code completion is immediately updated. I'm pretty sure this has been the case for a few years now.
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by jillesvangurp on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813559)
Yesterday, sorry to say but still off by magnitudes. These things are measured in ms on the eclipse side and in whole seconds on the Intellij side. On a good day it's less than 5 seconds in Intellij. I developed in Eclipse before I switched a few years ago and while it was a bit finicky with gradle, maven support was pretty solid. I never had issues where Eclipse compilation state was wrong for more than a few hundred ms. Basically if it says it compiles it means it compiled without errors, class files exist and when you run something it jumps straight to forking the process with no delay. In Intellij, it takes seconds at best; sometimes closer to 30-60 seconds.

Given that performance is a recurring topic in the Intellij release notes I conclude that they know they still have issues there and they are slowly looking for ways to make things faster. This is not a solved problem.

Part of this is the Kotlin compiler; part of this is indexing; part of this is simply caching logic.

I recently worked on the Elasticsearch code base in intellij. Fast is not a word I would use to describe that. It's a big code base and it clearly was struggling with it. I know some Elastic developers that still use Eclipse basically for this reason.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by chris_j on Sunday December 15, 2019 @04:03PM (#21798961)
What is it about your requirements that means that IntelliJ can't compete with Eclipse?
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by hugi on Sunday December 15, 2019 @05:11PM (#21799337)
I'm a contractor working on many projects. Using Eclipse, I can keep my entire universe of all projects I have deployed (about 30 of them), as well as their dependent libraries, as well as every open source project I use and contribute to, open at all times.

I almost never close a project and I never open a project. It's just all there. If I need to use or modify a piece of code, written by me or someone else, it's all accessible to me at all times with a single keystroke.

No project switching. Close to no context switching. IntelliJ doesn't even come close to this kind of power.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by zmmmmm on Sunday December 15, 2019 @07:29PM (#21799948)
I'm like the parent ... Eclipse provides an omniscient view of all my work with instant incremental compilation across all my projects, spanning PHP, JavaScript, Python, Java, Groovy, Kotlin, and more. Run with enough memory it just becomes like another part of my brain.

When I use IntelliJ I feel like I'm using a nice tool with a lot of sweet superficial features but lacking the comprehensiveness and the underlying grunt of Eclipse. It's like driving a Maserati (IntelliJ) vs a SUV (Eclipse). Yeah, I can drive around town pretty quick in a Maserati but for getting real heavy duty work done, it's an SUV every time.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by xtracto on Sunday December 15, 2019 @09:32PM (#21800405)
Really interesting description, thanks. How does current Eclipse compare to Netbeans? I currently use vim and VSCode, but in my Java years (10 years ago) I remember moving from Eclipse to Netbeans mainly for the form builder and because of performance.
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by zmmmmm on Monday December 16, 2019 @09:59PM (#21810104)
It's bean so long since I used NetBeans that I can't make a good comparison unfortunately. I do know it never surpassed eclipse for me but some of the reasons for that were probably circumstantial at the time (eg: whole team was using eclipse, etc).
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by winrid on Sunday December 15, 2019 @10:20PM (#21800576)
You can import projects in all those languages in a single Intellij window and use language plugins right?
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by shagie on Sunday December 15, 2019 @05:28PM (#21799412)
I believe you're seeing a conceptual mismatch between workspace and project from how Eclipse and IntelliJ model working.

Try creating an empty project in IntelliJ and then add each of your Eclipse projects as a module to the IntelliJ empty project.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by hugi on Sunday December 15, 2019 @05:39PM (#21799466)
Yeah, tried that. Multiple times. IntelliJ just doesn't handle it performance wise, and it feels awkward because IntelliJ just isn't designed as well for working on multiple projects simultaneously. It's probably great for people working on a single project with some dependencies (modules). IntelliJ really wants you to open a project, work on it, then you close it and open the next project. That doesn't fit me.

Doesn't mean IntelliJ is bad, it's just a bit limited in that regard.

My dozens of projects are not a single project with "modules". I have a universe of code in multitudes of interrelated projects, closed source and open source. I want to refactor openly, not having to care how I'm moving code between projects. Eclipse works perfectly for this. IntelliJ does not.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by deanCommie on Sunday December 15, 2019 @07:46PM (#21800029)
If the project share code that you want to refactor, then in Intellij's terminology they are modules, not projects

Import each one individually as a new module in a root project, and everything will be hunky dory.

A "module" in this case is just an atomic closure of some sort.

I've got plenty of Intellij projects with >50 modules, each of which are their own git repository, just fine.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by hugi on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:10AM (#21801301)
You kind of described the exact problem there. You have "plenty of projects with >50 modules". I don't have "plenty of workspaces", just one that contains all my "plenty of projects", almost all of which then depend in some way on a tree of hierarchies also within that workspace.

There are no islands. There's now switching between anything. It's just all my code and dependencies, always open and accessible and instantly available.

Creating a new project in Eclipse then requires no importing of modules on my part, I just create a new project, it's in my workspace and voila—it's now an integral part of my universe of code.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by AnthonBerg on Sunday December 15, 2019 @06:10PM (#21799630)
IntelliJ really wants you to open a project, work on it, then you close it and open the next project. That doesn't fit me.

This does not match my experience at all, fwiw. I keep all manner of projects open simultaneously.

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by Aeolun on Sunday December 15, 2019 @07:25PM (#21799936)
I think it’s interesting that this issue was exactly why I switched away from Eclipse years ago. The performance was atrocious.

I guess that pushed them to improve ;)

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by hugi on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:10AM (#21801305)
Yeah, "modern Eclipse" is a very different beast from "several years ago Eclipse", that also goes for performance.

As I said in a parent, I'm very certain the competition from IntelliJ got them off their asses :).

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by therealdrag0 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:27PM (#21815948)
I'm an IJ user and I do this; however I remember eclipse was much better about knowing that you have a dependency also in the workspace and using that when you "go to definition" instead of going to the compiled version.
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by itronitron on Sunday December 15, 2019 @04:29PM (#21799121)
being able to organize things into separate projects in Eclipse, in the same window, is very nice
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by Majestic121 on Sunday December 15, 2019 @04:42PM (#21799194)
That's possible with intelliJ as well (at least in the pro version)
Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by ivan_gammel on Sunday December 15, 2019 @04:40PM (#21799177)
Eclipse project = IntelliJ module

Eclipse workspace = IntelliJ project

Re:JetBrains: $270M revenue, 405K paying users, $0 raised by pharaohgeek on Monday December 16, 2019 @09:50AM (#21803362)
There is a single Eclipse plugin that keeps me married to that IDE: log4e (http://log4e.de). It makes it a breeze to add logging statements to your code. One click puts start/end statements on all methods. One click lets you log a particular variable. And all the statements are templatized, making it dead simple to ensure your logging adheres to your company's logging standards. I WISH this plugin (or something comparable) was available for IntelliJ or even NetBeans. I'd drop Eclipse in a heartbeat.