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Re:Shopping Sucks Now by egypturnash on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:16PM (#21785580)
When I was living in the PNW and realized I direly needed gloves, I just hit up a few of the department stores downtown until I found some that met my criteria. Which are probably similar to those of this author, I wanted some that looked cute, had a conductive patch on the finger so I could use my phone without taking them off, would fit on my long hands with long fingernails, and weren’t super expensive gloves designed for arctic expeditions. I could see them in person and make choices based on how their build quality felt.

I think my total time, including the bus rides downtown and back (even though I was probably doing other things downtown on that trip like “working”), was probably less than she spent opening ten thousand different tabs in her search for The Perfect Glove.

And then in a couple years I had to do it again because I could only find one of the gloves when it started to be too cold for bare hands again. It ain’t worth investing a ton of time into picking gloves or umbrellas or other things that tend to get lost or separated.

Shopping for physical goods on the Internet sucks.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by smacktoward on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:30PM (#21785706)
I think the key to the article can be found in this passage:

> [T]he problem is that now, somewhat suddenly, perfect knowledge of the perfect glove, for you specifically, exists, if you simply do enough research.

When you're shopping in a physical store, you have no expectation that you're going to find the absolute, one-and-only perfect glove (or whatever) in the world for you. Even in the largest stores, you understand that their shelf space is limited, and therefore you set your expectations not to find the absolute, one-and-only perfect glove in the world for you, but to find a glove that's good enough for your needs. As long as you can find something that meets your requirements at an acceptable cost, you come away satisfied. Maybe not thrilled, but satisfied.

The infinite variety of online shopping tells us to set our expectations higher than that. Suddenly every thing we buy has to be the perfect version of that thing for us -- because if it isn't, that means we are lazy dullards who lacked the research skills and/or wherewithal to go out and find the perfect version. Instead of it being the fault of the shop that we had to settle for good enough, suddenly it's our fault.

The only way out of this trap is to realize that there is no such thing as the perfect product, that even the works of the finest craftspeople are going to have flaws and blemishes on them, and that good enough really is, you know, good enough.

Or, in other words, that happiness is not a glove that you can buy.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by NeedMoreTea on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:56PM (#21786760)
There was one other difference. Most physical stores outside the poundshops and end of line discounters really cared about their reputation. It was hard work to supply gloves (or anything) to many of the better department stores as first you would have to prove they were well made, consistent etc. If they were crap you would also hurt the reputation of the store... End result is most of the choices were good enough and which you bought came down to fit, design or materials.

Meanwhile on the internet, and Amazon especially, no one cares about quality any more. 9 out of 10 results are bottom tier unknown brands selling gloves that photograph well. They may be barely 1mm thick, appear to be sewn by someone wearing boxing gloves, and won't last two washes, but look at all that "choice". That's really crap masquerading as choice. Amazon seem to foolishly believe their reputation is immune to the shite on the marketplace and in every Amazon search.

On the internet good enough is increasingly rare. Even a "trusted" brand races to the bottom. For most physical things, clothes and shoes especially, I'm back to the shops and sad that so many of them have closed lately.

It shouldn't be this difficult!

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by JohnFen on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:36PM (#21785769)
I think your comment makes really excellent points. This line:

> The infinite variety of online shopping tells us to set our expectations higher than that.

made me think a bit -- that used to be true for me, but the effect is trending in the opposite direction now. I have learned that it's very nearly impossible to tell if a product being shown is actually any good or not unless I'm already familiar with that company's products, regardless of what the product listing or product reviews say.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by OnlineGladiator on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:09PM (#21786050)
Being overwhelmed with choice is known as analysis paralysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

https://xkcd.com/1801/

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by ssss11 on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:37PM (#21786265)
It’s the overwhelming choice yes, but it’s also the fact that companies sell junk online that looks good in a photo and then of course you receive it and it’s useless. The reviews are all rigged and the brands are unknown to you, so there’s no way of knowing until you’ve purchased it, and then in many cases there’s no way or it’s very difficult to return the dud.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by JohnFen on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:47PM (#21786711)
> Being overwhelmed with choice is known as analysis paralysis.

Yes, but my point is that the inability to tell whether or not a product is any good reduces analysis paralysis because it reduces the trustworthiness of the analysis.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by nswest23 on Saturday December 14, 2019 @08:25PM (#21793763)
see also The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by sokoloff on Friday December 13, 2019 @10:26PM (#21787605)
> The infinite variety of online shopping tells us to set our expectations higher than that.

I suspect online dating has some similar effects.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by ghaff on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:32PM (#21786233)
You see the same thing with travel lodging. In the past, you'd maybe have a few hotel/B&B names. Maybe some recommendations from friends or Lonely Planet. (Or, maybe going back a little further, just tell your travel agent to just book something.)

Today, it's really easy to go down a rabbit hole finding the best/best value/etc. place complete with lots of squinting at reviews to see if they're for real and/or have the same criteria you do.

I mostly don't sweat it too much but it's easy to do so.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by masonic on Saturday December 14, 2019 @04:31AM (#21788626)
"Hurry! Just 1 room left!"
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by curun1r on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:29PM (#21786222)
The flip side of infinite variety is also that there are some truly terrible products for sale online that would never make it past the selection process to get brick-and-mortar shelf space. So while going to a physical store results in just choosing the best of the available options, online shopping requires at least some research or else you end up wasting money on things that are utterly worthless or, worse yet, put your health and/or other property at risk.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by ghaff on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:56PM (#21786370)
It's one reason I like sites like Wirecutter and related. It doesn't necessarily work for categories where I have very specific opinions about what I like and don't like. But if I want a trowel, a USB hub, or whatever utilitarian object, I'll probably just order one of their recommendations and be done with it--and it will probably be just fine.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by mark-r on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:32PM (#21786614)
One of the reasons I have a membership to CostCo is that I've come to trust their product choices. If they only carry one variation of a product, it's almost certainly perfectly adequate and probably better than I could have selected on my own.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by DrScump on Saturday December 14, 2019 @04:27AM (#21788617)
Bear in mind that financials in the form of exclusive corporate deals factor in, too.

I used to buy a lot of videotape at Price Club. I really liked the Maxell Hi-Fi tapes; they carried multiple grades of the Maxell line. After Costco took over, only Sony was sold.

Another example: the credit card partnerships. First Discover only, then Amex only, now Citi-branded Visa.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by pzs on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:28PM (#21786206)
It's a case of "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

Some time ago I read about a paper on HN. It was explaining what can you do to maximize happiness in life. IIRC, one piece of advice therein was to avoid comparison shopping. You elaborated very clearly why.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by chrisweekly on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:09PM (#21786053)
Yes, this.

In general, more choices don't make you happier -- in fact they usually have the opposite effect.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by dsego on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:35PM (#21786629)
I think this is called the paradox of choice. There are TED talks and books about it.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by dvhh on Saturday December 14, 2019 @04:40AM (#21788655)
The one from Malcom Gladwell about spaghetti sauce ?
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by dsego on Saturday December 14, 2019 @05:23AM (#21788768)
That one, and also the one from Barry Schwartz.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by chewz on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:49PM (#21786348)
> > [T]he problem is that now, somewhat suddenly, perfect knowledge of the perfect glove, for you specifically, exists, if you simply do enough research.

> When you're shopping in a physical store, you have no expectation that you're going to find the absolute, one-and-only perfect glove

Tinder for gloves problem sort of? The misleading impression of infinite possibilities on the Internet. In real life you optimize for local maximum only

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by kthejoker2 on Sunday December 15, 2019 @09:26AM (#21796334)
Nobelist Herbert Simon coined it satisficing in 1956, there's a lot of economic theory around it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing?wprov=sfla1

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by tartoran on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:13PM (#21786495)
This is true for online dating or other online experiences of ... plenty of choice.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by 80mph on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:20AM (#21787967)
^+1 In just a few paragraphs, you summed up my frustration with online dating.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by vector_spaces on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:36PM (#21785768)
I feel this so much. Sometimes I'll look up objects I've bought in brick & mortar stores that I've been completely happy with, and find that they have dismal reviews. This is why for certain items I make a conscious effort to not bother looking at the reviews. Even if it were possible for me to find the best doormat, it simply wouldn't be worth the time, labor, and emotional energy of sifting through reviews and forums and blog posts, and discerning fake reviews and influencer marketing and people who have different requirements and expectations than me, and product SKUs that have changed since reviews/posts/whatever were written.

As an aside: I'd love to find the best cat wand toy. I've tried hundreds from pretty much all the major eCommerce sites and they all suck. If someone knows of one that won't break immediately I'd be willing to pay top dollar for it.

But yeah, unfortunately as other commenters have pointed out, in small towns and even where I am in Albuquerque, brick & mortar stores are either disappearing or aggressively shifting their business to the internet, so it's becoming more and more unavoidable to come into contact with reviews and whatnot even for relatively basic items.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by egypturnash on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:25AM (#21788147)
Go outside and find a reasonably solid stick, clean it up a bit, and take the cord and toy off of one of your broken cat wands. Or visit the hardware store and get a reasonably solid dowel and do the same.

It won’t be The Best but it will have a much lower carbon footprint than buying another plastic one made in China, shipped across the ocean, and then shipped around three or four times while people try to arbitrage costs between major e-commerce sites. And if you have any kind of mystical bent then it can also have the bonus of being charged with you thinking about how much you love your little mouse-murderer, and that will make it far better than any mass-produced toy.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by Stratoscope on Friday December 13, 2019 @10:08PM (#21787542)
> I'd love to find the best cat wand toy.

I don't know if there is a best one, but after trying several, my cats found one they really like:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01ANUU12I/

We got this expansion kit to go with it:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00UZK5WQC/

One nice thing about this wand is that it has three telescoping sections, so the tip section is thin and wiggly.

It's so wiggly that the cats learned to use it on their own!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46rROBUDPYI

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by evanweaver on Saturday December 14, 2019 @04:22AM (#21788608)
Never had any problems with Da Bird wand.

https://www.dabird.com/da-bird

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by jkhwleroiu on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:26PM (#21785674)
The problem is that even in big cities, real world shops are disappearing.

This year I wanted to buy a TV, and wanted to see them in real life to judge colors/brightness levels, and shockingly, in London, I found just one place which had like 10 TVs from the leading brands. I'm sure there are a few more, but I wasn't able to locate them using google, or walking the main shopping streets. I remember shops 10 years ago which had acres of electronics (albeit in a different country).

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by papreclip on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:31PM (#21785720)
Brick and mortar shops can't stop you from coming in and finding the perfect item, then buying it online to save money. I bought an office chair recently and didn't feel confident picking one without trying chairs out in person. The chair I settled on was $100 cheaper online
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by jkhwleroiu on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:34PM (#21785750)
I wouldn't mind paying a few pounds for them to let me browse the products. Maybe this is a viable business model.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by lifeformed on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:44PM (#21785836)
Maybe they can offer a super wide selection available to see, since they don't need to carry stock. And perhaps you can order from them if you like it, and they run an online store where they ship it from, and you get your $10 back as a discount.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by sxates on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:18PM (#21786126)
This is basically describing the Amazon stores.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by paggle on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:59PM (#21785966)
Another approach is the manufacturer showroom. They don't care where you buy it so they just try to induce the demand.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by ghaff on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:01PM (#21786406)
But it's not very common. I expected showrooming to develop into a more formalized thing but it really hasn't. I guess between Walmart and B&M chains like Best Buy that have managed to stabilize for the most part, there hasn't been a compelling need for manufacturers to establish a showroom presence.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by modernyogihippy on Saturday December 14, 2019 @05:00AM (#21788705)
This is one point the article forgot (or didn't catch) to touch upon. I would like to go buy items in-store but I always hesitate to make the purchase because I know that same item will likely be significantly cheaper somewhere online. Of course, when I go online to find that product, I get distracted by the score of other options available leading to further indecision.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by thiagomgd on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:21PM (#21786148)
It is especially weird when it's cheaper online on the SAME store. That happened with me in brazil.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by mark-r on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:36PM (#21786636)
What's worse is when the store won't honor their own online price. That happened to me in the US, I think it was Walmart.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by sgc on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:22AM (#21787973)
They recently honored it for me. 20% difference.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by wtracy on Friday December 13, 2019 @11:35PM (#21787837)
Rumor has it that a certain US retailer has an online store that tries to determine whether you are checking prices from inside their physical store, and raises the advertised price to match those of the store you are in.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by pontifier on Friday December 13, 2019 @07:34PM (#21786963)
Happened to me in target the other day.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by chihuahua on Friday December 13, 2019 @10:18PM (#21787577)
At Target, at the checkout you can show them the price on their own website, and they will sell it to you for the online price.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by allthecybers on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:15PM (#21786108)
A shift I've noticed in the USA, is I'll go to an electronics retailer, and the item I want isn't on the shelf. In it's place is a placard instructing me to order it online. My hope was to actually handle the item and see if I liked it, then not buy it if I didn't like it.

Instead I have to order it online and then if I don't like it, either return it to the store or send it back via post.

While its super convenient for the consumer, in some respects, ordering everything online seems wasteful and bad for even the consumer and retailer in many respects.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by Fr0styMatt88 on Friday December 13, 2019 @11:54PM (#21787903)
Many many times I've consciously thought "I'm going to give retail a chance!" and go out of my way to find something at a physical store. Often it's because I might want it that day; sometimes I've just wanted to explore.

Yet I always end up wasting many hours. I can't drive, so it's public transport and walking everywhere for me (that's fine, it just adds to the time). My experience has been that if you know exactly what you want and it's anything slightly off the beaten path, you're going to have a hard time finding a store that will stock it.

Recent examples that come to mind: a certain kind of USB cable, an SSD, musician's earplugs, an induction cooker. Plus almost any book that I want.

This year was the first year that I've done the majority of my Christmas shopping online (I actually managed to get to it early enough!). It's been hands-down the best experience I've had Christmas shopping. Not to mention that I haven't had that Mariah Carey Christmas song shoved down my ears this year as a result :)

Physical stores just can't compete for certain kinds of shoppers.

Also, I hear so much about physical stores treating their employees like shit. Primary examples include GameStop and EB Games. When I think of that, I think that some stores deserve to fail.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by vineyardmike on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:13AM (#21788121)
> physical stores treating their employees like shit

Wait until you hear about amazon.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by Wowfunhappy on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:33PM (#21785740)
I think this might be the key.

It's not that the internet provides too wide a selection, it's that it fails to provide some very basic pieces of information.

How does the product feel in your hand? Is it soft? Does it feel durable? Does the stitching look neat, or haphazard and frizzy?

When we evaluate a product in person, we make all of these assessments without even thinking about them.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by killface on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:24PM (#21786170)
It's also that dishonesty goes unpunished. Any semi-sentient slime mold can set up a new business with FBA and do the same shitty shopping practices. They'll make enough before they're found out.

It's also why every product is like 4.5 stars -- they just astroturf the reviews by giving away product.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by ropiwqefjnpoa on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:21PM (#21785620)
Definitely. Shops have limited inventory so they will tend to sell a well rounded, well made product (depends on store of course). And if it is junk, you can usually tell in person.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by kevin_thibedeau on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:35PM (#21786255)
Shopping for physical goods in B&M stores sucks.

After the last few decades of recessions, stores have gradually dropped their inventory of goods for anybody outside the meat of the bell curve. I will shop for things for months just to buy local and end up buying online because nobody will carry what I want or will fit.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by riversflow on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:42PM (#21786680)
Ironically, having size 12 hands, I’ve looked for years for winter gloves that fit in person, and only very recently was able to find gloves that actually fit. Meanwhile I can order work gloves in size 12 from Amazon all day long. So kinda the opposite experience.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by oxipital on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:15PM (#21786106)
What's interesting is your second time around was probably faster because your research from the first round could have altered the second round of choosing gloves.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by esotericn on Saturday December 14, 2019 @10:24AM (#21789902)
Well, _my_ winter gloves have a karabiner on them. I shall call them The Best Gloves. </snark>
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by lonelappde on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:30AM (#21788152)
You can buy duplicates of a consumable.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by paulcole on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:21PM (#21785623)
You're talking about a pretty specific type of physical goods that have to fit properly and meet your requirements for aesthetics, quality, and function.

Buying physical commodities or items where those factors don't matter on the Internet is incredible. I don't have to go anywhere, I don't have to talk to anyone, I don't have to lug anything anywhere, etc.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by egypturnash on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:05AM (#21788097)
Did you read the article or go straight to the comments? I’m talking about buying the exact same thing the article used as an example. I think that’s a fair thing to contrast with its thesis that “all shopping sucks now”.

She had a terrible time spending days researching the Perfect Pair Of Gloves online, going to the one “big box” store in her area that had supposedly had it, and going back home ungloved instead of looking at other stores when the one store had no gloves in stock that day. I had a perfectly fine time going downtown when I was probably going there for some other reasons already and visiting a couple of stores looking for some Okay Gloves.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by paulcole on Saturday December 14, 2019 @09:17AM (#21789596)
Your comment violates HN guidelines:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

To promote quality discourse, I will not reply. Feel free to edit and re-submit.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by cgriswald on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:41PM (#21785815)
What are you buying that quality and function don't matter? I expect quality and function even in something as basic as toilet paper. It used to be I could find a brand and type that I liked, and then order it over the internet, often in bulk since it stores without really going bad. But now, I can't be sure I'll even get the genuine product from ahemazon certain vendors.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by killface on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:24PM (#21786182)
online shopping !== amazon
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by qrbLPHiKpiux on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:39PM (#21786283)
At Sam's Club today, eyeing a watch. Waiting for associate to let me see it. Open Amazon, read reviews. Over $20 less on Amazon. Asked if Sam's price matches.

> No.

In two taps, right in front of her, ordered it.

Said she understood. Thanked her for showing it to me.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by egypturnash on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:12AM (#21788115)
Dude, that’s a total dick move.

Is twenty bucks really that precious to you that you’ll throw money out of your local economy into Bezos’ pockets? Right in front of someone who just helped you decide this is the watch you wanted and could have put it in your hands right now instead of waiting for shipping in the middle of the super-busy Christmas season and hoping it’s not gonna end up be a counterfeit copy?

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by advarckcal on Saturday December 14, 2019 @11:47PM (#21794522)
And the Walton family needs another buck? I don't think Sam's club is any better for the local economy then amazon.
Re:Shopping Sucks Now by C14L on Saturday December 14, 2019 @08:27AM (#21789404)
You being able to see and touch it costs money.

The time of the employee who showed it to you costs money.

Re:Shopping Sucks Now by lonelappde on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:32AM (#21788160)
Why didn't you give her a tip?